Sad to say, if you want AA, don't come here..
 

Man I hate to even say this, but many others have already said it. The "flow" is not your friend in today's hiring market.

A little background. I'm a second career guy, long time AA pax, Exec Plat even for several years. LOVE the brand... it feels like home. When I switched to professional flying and got a CJO at Envoy I was over the moon. Get to fly an amazing jet with the logo I prefer, winning..

BUT, I picked the absolute worst way to get to AA while the hiring frenzy is going on. When my captains joined Envoy 4/5/6 years ago, it made complete sense as hiring at the legacies wasn't really a good option for them as the minimums were much higher.

All of us that joined the regional FO ranks in the last 12-24 months are in a different world, not of our creation, just blind luck of timing. This legacy hiring frenzy, AA peaks last, will peak in the next 12-36 months and calm down (age 67 will affect this somewhat). "Flow" is over 6 years.

Of my new hire group, a couple of us absolutely hammered to get hours.. picked up extra, picked up when we go displaced, etc. One class mate hit 860 hours flown in his first 12 months.

None of us can get AA to talk to us. That's fine, I get it, there is a "flow"... don't rob Peter to pay Paul. BUT, AA is hiring people with lower qualifications/experience/resumes because they are somewhere else.

Two classmates (with about ~550 hrs) are already at SWA. I am at a little over 700 with a SWA CJO and class date. My class mate over 800 hours just got his UA CJO. Another class mate has DA and SWA interviews next week. AA won't talk to any of us so they are losing all of us.

I'll keep my AA app up to date as I leave, but maybe SWA will be awesome and I'll just stay.

Just know, if you come to Envoy and wait for the flow, 6000+pliots will hire in before you. Time is not your friend in this market.

I have sincerely enjoyed Envoy, the people I work with, especially the E175. I do not want to leave, but to stay in this hiring market would be insane. Being comfortable is less important that senority.

NOTHING is more important that getting your # at your final destination airline. NOTHING.

Take the path that leads to your final destination in as little time as possible.

If you want to work for DA/UA/SWA, Envoy is great. Come get good training, fly a great airplane, 98% cool Captains, upgrade at 950 hours, and then get hired where you want.
If you want to work for AA while hiring is hot, do not come here.

Good luck and choose well.

I hear ya. Congrats on SWA ! You could go there and then to AA faster than the flow if you really wanted to go AA, but it shouldn’t be that way. I was 2 yearish to flowing and left and never looked back, wish I had gone sooner, but I did thoroughly enjoy my time at Envoy. Just not enough to give up massive seniority to wait for flow.

8 months ago I had an email telling me to pick a class date as a DEC to Envoy. 100k check waiting. Almost twice the pay I was about to get a a CA at my airline. I almost jumped.

I'm glad I didn't. I would still be on reserve and only nearly a year i to a 6-7 year flow.

I start class at AA in a month. And I'm coming from a non-wholly owned AA regional. It is truly remarkable how the industry is working right now and the different hiring practices between ULCCs, Majors, and Legacies.

Smart move. In your hiring date group the world was so different. You may not have had the same opportunity to leave earlier.

Congrats on making a move that worked for you.

Very smart, you didn't let that fat check distract you. I am told that most of the DEC candidates have been picked over pretty well and there just isn't a lot of solid candidates left. Something is going to have to change.

Congrats on making it to mainline.

not sure if it still is happening, but two pilots in my NH class last year leveraged a CJO with UA and DL to get a class date almost 2 years ahead of their AA flow. FWIW they had PIC time from a prior job and Envoy wasn't their first airline but still has low time. Also I know that his happens at Endeavor for the flow to DL also. (Had two Endeavor Captains in my class that couldn't get to Delta sooner so bailed to AA.).

You're right on all counts. Nothing in this industry beats seniority. Nothing in this industry impacts your quality of life more than your ability to bid for schedules, hold the equipment you want, base you want, vacation you want. Also for second career (ie older than the early to mid-twenties guys who are just starting out a first career) getting in sooner to capitalize on the direct contribution for retirement is HUGE. When you have 40 years or so to compound the interest of a 401k, you've got time to build a base...discounting any previous retirement package, comparing just what you will have from an airline career of 25 years at a major with 16% direct contribution, vs 40+ years, the difference can be staggering. Also with the wave of hiring catching guys in their 20s for the majors (having many friends still at the majors, they've all commented that many of the newhires are coming from 1-3 year FOs at regionals and are still in their 20s), the guys hired ahead of you may be considerably younger and thus won't drop off the seniority list before you do.

There are so many reasons to get to the final destination as soon as possible, you're making the right move. For end-of-career guys like me who've already been there, and only came back to work to kill the last couple of years and make a little more money, it's not important. We can ride out moving up the list here (I've moved up 400 numbers in the 9 months since I started, and have 400+ guys below me as well,) take our 4 weeks of vacation starting next year, and have some fun flying with younger guys who haven't lost a small piece of their soul to the frustrations that lead to burn out in this business.

Good luck at SWA. Even if it ends up not being the place you want to spend the rest of your career, it will open doors at every other major out there.... and as someone else pointed out here, there is the possibility of leveraging the class date with AA to get hired if you know someone in recruiting. You never know until you try.

I was very torn as to holding on a few more months to upgrade to get some TPIC or just taking the SWA offer. I'm taking the SWA offer.

Are you one of our DECs? Cool. Glad to hear you have a great outlook on it. Yeah the numbers have moved pretty damn fast.. I can understand people getting comfortable with bidding power. I consistently get weekends off and would likely be a line holding CA by early next year. If things were slow at the legacies I would happily life it out here, but that's not the case obviously.

Thanks for the well wish. I know it's the right move, it's just a bit scary to leave something you enjoy on the chance of something better.

I had to make that choice in 2006, after 12 years at Eagle, to go onto what was in essence still a startup carrier (only 5 years old at the time), or ride it out to see if the flow-through didn't completely dissolve. It was a scary choice to give up 12 years at a solid company to go to work for a growing but unproven airline, so I get where you're coming from on giving up a stable, for-sure thing. Then I made the even more scary choice after 16 years there to retire when the opportunity came about, even though it was years early for me, but I needed the break. I had become one of those crusty, burned out, hate to come to work Captains I never intended to be. As you said, it's the right choice given the times. Now is not the time for anyone who has the ambition of moving on to sit and wait for it to happen. If the door is open, walk through it now.

that's a good call in my opinion...I'm guessing after you have the SWA on your resume, AA will call (if you still want it) if they don't, than you're at a career destination...enjoy!

TPIC isn't worth much today. UA, DL, SWA et al. will hire you without any TPIC. And you'll get an AA interview within a month of going to SWA if you still want it.

Your job at a regional isn't to fly airplanes. Your job at a regional is to get out of there as quickly as you can. (this assuming you still have some years left in your career).

quote of the thread right here

Another Envoy 12-24 monther here. I hit my 1,000 company/121 hours in June (15 months after hitting the line) and am now the proud holder of a United CJO! Our time working in the AA system has created a strong bond of affection to the brand, and I admit I’ll miss a lot of things about it, but I really have no frame of reference because I’ve only ever worked in the AA system. I have a strong suspicion the grass will be greener at my next job, and in the event it isn’t, heck, the door to AA will then be open should I choose to walk through it. What disappoints me are the games AA recruitment is playing with Envoy pilots who are diligently working to get hired outside the flow. “It’s like getting accepted to an Ivy League school,” one of them told me. I didn’t say it, but I certainly thought that was a disingenuous and dismissive comment to make to someone who’s more qualified (in terms of 121 experience) than many of their off-the-street hires. Business is business, however, and it is time for the next transaction! Best of luck at SWA!

I am at that exact same point as you are! Envoy FO about to be force upgraded on the next vacancy bid with an interview with SWA coming up.

This thread speaks a lot of truth. I wish I could go to AA from Envoy too.

Agree on all accounts. I too had reservations leaving the known for the unknown, a travel system I knew, and lots of good people I enjoyed working with. I promise all those reservations disappeared about the first hour into basic indoc and even more so in training and on the line.

Every training event started with “thank you for being here and welcome”. All the admin processes work; smoothly. The crews are equally awesome, often better.

The only thing I miss is the 100K and paying back a bonus…. Which in the grand scheme of things is not significant over this career, and would be sad to be the only deciding factor to stay somewhere.

The elitism about not hiring loyal WO captains has to stop, it’s only hurting AA in the long run and the competition has capitalized on hiring very well trained experienced pilots who do well in training and on the line.

Congrats and welcome to UAL, I’m excited for you because I can recently remember the feelings you are about to experience.

Well even at the Ivy League schools if you're Asian you need a 1600 SAT score and a +4.0GPA. Certain other demographics..... not so much.
So you're almost right, it is kinda like ivy league schools. In more ways than one.

Burn'em dude. Get your SWA type rating and go to AA.

A few years ago you needed a resume/application consulting company that costs hundreds.
Then you needed total time, TPIC, Jet time only, no turboprop. And it better be glass. Preferably underwing mounted engines.
You flew heavies international? Were you the captain? Was it military? Sorry not good enough.
Get a 737 type rating. Because why not.
Then you needed to wait in line at bread line... I mean job fairs. Which cost several hundred dollars just to get in the door. Not including airfare, hotels, or rental cars, and calling in sick to go.
Then it you needed to be a check airman, and IOE, and sim instructor.
And be a veteran, but only specific veterans got preference. Sorry mechanics and infantry not you.
And volunteer service building gay houses with green peace. To make you a more rounded person to sit in the cockpit for 4 days.
You need a degree.
And you better be gay.
Or a woman. Or black. LGBTQ-ABCDEFU....
Then it was interview prep that costs thousands. But of course be yourself at the interview, because they only want you to be you. But don't do anything weird.

F#ck'em dude. They did this to themselves. Do what's good for you. And if that means you burn their regionals, and SW for a type rating, that's just the game. Good luck.

And BTW^^^^^ all while making $16.00 an hour. No commuter clauses, hotels, or new hire bonuses.

Little off topic here but how did you get your SIC hours so quickly? I’m trying to do the same!

Good timing, frankly. I was hired during the immediate post-pandemic FO shortage. Flew 50+ hrs a month during my three months on reserve, then aggressively picked up OT and flew 70-80 hrs a month while a lineholder. I could have hit 1,000 hrs sooner, but I dropped some trips to enjoy my non-rev travel benefits a little!

Off topic but related to jumping ship. Does anyone know how the bonus payback structure works? Are all bonuses pro rated? And is the payback amount the pre tax amount or what we received? Thanks

The CA upgrade bonus was not pro rated, paid back the full amount. Thankfully, they only wanted what was received after takes, not the full bonus amount, which made it way more simple.

It was a straightforward process and the accounts receivable team was professional and courteous.

Also in regards to this, any intel as to whether it is a negative mark if you want to leave for somewhere else but apply to AA later?

If anything, you have a better chance of AA calling you AFTER you leave a WO. Leave for any LCC/ ACMI. This is your fastest way there.

Not street hiring a WO pilot is of immediate benefit to AA. (setting aside potentially losing them to another airline).

Not hiring a former WO pilot hurst them immediately, helps a competitor immediately and only has potential benefits down the line if WO pilots become afraid to leave ... this assuming the WO even exists in a year.

Nope, I left for another carrier and still got an AA offer a year later. I said nope. Went to UA and I absolutely love it here. As long as you leave on good terms AA won’t care.

typical old bitter white guy blaming everything, other than himself for not getting into the airline he wants. it's honestly pathetic how fast some of you resort to racism and misogyny the second things get a little hard.

oh, and affirmative action is over btw.

Pot meet kettle.

Dont talk about things when you have no idea what you’re talking about, Whistle Nuts. Getting hired in this industry 10+ years ago was a very different animal.

And I’m white. Not old. Not young. Go F yourself.

even if you broke a contract such as cadet bonus agreement? (But repaid?)

How original. Play the "you're a bigot" card to anyone that points out the favoritism in the industry that it is aimed at virtue signaling diversity. Yes, it's the ONLY explanation.

Christ, your post history. You’re one psych eval from LTD man.

These are some vaild points.Years ago the industry was tough to get into. Too bad the quality of information you have is tarnished by the rest of your post.

If you are pilot, I hope you dont currently hold a vaild medical. I dont think the general public would feel good about trusting thier lives to a pilot as high strung as you are. Get some serious help.

Envoy Accounts Recievable has come looking for bonus payback. I am in the middle of that discussion now. A couple of notes:
- New Hire Bonus (signed early 2022) is NOT pro-rated.
- NHB payback request is NET (less taxes)
- They are offering pay-out plans of up to 12 months... this is still in discussion.
- They are asking for ATP/CTP repayment, but I have not seen paperwork supporting that request.
- The are asking for Retention Bonus repayment, but I have not seen paperwork supporting that request.

My advice on this topic:
- IF you take the bonus, put 100% of the NET into a 5% interest paying account and DO NOT SPEND it!
- If they come looking for payback, engage in the discussion and don't just ignore them. They can engage lawyers if they want, and at your expense if you lose.

A follow up post about my thread..

I ended up taking the CJO with SWA(WN). Training was good at a top notch facility. 99% of the people were great, friendly, happy to be there. We were treated like adults with access to training equipment (CPTs) off hours to practice. We had every bit of support we needed to be successful. Do not sweat the "it's not AQP" (yet). They did not release us to the checking events (Oral) and (PC in the SIM) until we were ready. They also accomodated some classmates that got ill or had family issues back home. A couple had need for some additional training, they just slid back and connected with another group and did fine.

Part of me is a bit salty about AAG/AA freezing us WO guys out of mainline, but so far I am feeling like this is a good thing. The people just feel a lot happier and nicer across the organization. The gate agents, rampers, ops agents, FAs, etc. Everything just feels easier. I'm also getting 17-18 days off either directly in my bid or with a tiny bit of trip trading. The trip trade tools are awesome compared to the 1970s insanity at ENY.

I can not say this enough... Do NOT wait for "the FLOW".. All of the big hiring push will be long over by the time you flow. Envoy and the E175 were enjoyable. I miss the E175. BUT... NOTHING... NOTHING... NOTHING is more important than getting to your final airline senority list. If AA is your passion and final destination, the WO regionals are NOT for you... unless you are just bad at math..

UA and DAL have both hired a bunch of ENY guys. If that's what you want, rock on you will likely have a good experience at ENY.

Good luck and smooth flying!

what happens when you all get stapled to AA later this year, but you left to go to SWA? You will then be behind a lot more.

Thanks for the laugh...

How about just merging all the Eagles together? Wait, it’s just 1998 prank calling.

That right there is some funny stuff!!

This right here. There is a reason they ordered more 175s and the pay rates hit the finish line end of '24. Once the 145s can't get clapped out anymore, PDT will fold into PSA, who will fold into ENY. The -700s will go next and Eagle will return with just -900s & 175s.

PSA opening PHL and DFW bases was no coincidence.

.02