Envoy management continue to screw with us every chance they get. The latest is their unilateral re-interpretation of how PVDs are handled. Past practice was if you had a lost day in a city, a single PVD would net 2 days off as the lost day contained no flying, and you would continue the trip from base. Taking the PVD next to a lost day would turn a 4 day trip into a 2 day trip. Now they will deadhead you to a station to sit in a hotel on the lost day after your vacation day, making the 4 day a 3 day trip with plenty of hotel appreciation time. Yet another unilateral change to work rules that negatively impacts our QOL.

very true. they seem to have no honor. they are the prime example of why the RLA needs to be modernized. The level of abuse of the English language is astounding. This is what happens when they hire a bunch of labor attorneys formerly employed by Mesa.

Sorry I meant 2011. We got 600 hires in 2011.

Cuj, by my guesstimate you've probably got 6 to 700 folks between you and the top 300 over there. So, maybe 2 years to flow if all works out well?

What happens when Envoy can't hire enough to replace what they need? Do you really think they will park planes as Pedro stated previously. What if you get stuck due to "operational necessity" and are held back for "integrity of the airline?"

Just curious if you've given this any thought considering the track record of management over there.

Hey, we all make mistakes. I just recall one year recently though they said they wanted 600 (or some similar number) and only got about 105. It drew a lot of ridicule on EL. Times are MUCH tougher now and I'd like to see the required number of pilots "brought on", I just don't see that happening. Not unless serious poaching occurs that is consistant. Envoy and Mason have been in full court press for months now about the happy dance conga line Envoy is and will be, but 20+/month ain't gonna feed the Bulldog, at least IMO.

It all goes to my assertion that Envoy want to cleanse the remaining 824 to get out from that constraint and then consolidation or alteration of WO's will occur with uniform flow provisions based on seniority which will be determined by SLI arbitration (at least hopefully depending on the method of consolidation for Envoy). Thus, an Envoy new-hire might do better or worse then pilot X at another WO depending on the result if that equation, but to put any real weight about what will happen 2, 4 or 6 years out is a recipe for disappointment.

I realize this position is enraging to some at Envoy.

It seems for every claim of bliss there, I hear 2-3 tales of woe. Walking through a hub the other day, I ran into an old F/O I used to fly with. Very little positive to say and he's outside the 824 and has one foot out the door already. If Delta hires the 1600 I hear the claim over the next 2 years, I'm sure a bunch will ge Envoy. Other carriers will lose to Delta too and thus more from Envoy elsewhere.

A bird in the hand.

You keep going back to the same old argument, but how will they get new hires. I have news for you, each and every regional has the exact same problem. When RAH files bankruptcy or smaller non wholly owned companies like TSA/GoJets/Compass get bought up, they will have those pilots. Personally, I would rather be in front of those guys than behind them.

In macro terms, as the "regional pilot shortage" worsens, who do you think that Delta and AA will invest in, their wholly owned carriers or an outside contractor. The pilot shortage will create casualties, but envoy, PSA and PDT will not be among them.

But lets play this out. Lets say that AAG cannot find enough pilots to staff its regional flying. This situation will effect all its regional carriers, not just envoy. AA will follow its competitors and bring that flying back in house. (eaglefly's true motives by the way) Being as AAL (through USAir) now has an Embraer 190 fleet and program in place, Parker could easily convert envoy's E175 options into E190s placed at AAL. As Parker has already, publically acknowledged, they have no problem finding mainline applicants. When they do that, where do you think they will be getting the pilots to fly those aircraft from? Envoy.

I do agree with you. Their current system will not solve the problems they face. Before this whole "pilot shortage" plays itself out over the next two decades, things will be very different. When you look at how Parker's mentor, Crandall handled similar situations, at Parker's past actions and comments he has made during the Town Hall meetings, I think the positive changes that will inevitably be made, will work out very nicely for envoy pilots. I am sure you will quite disappointed though.

On a side note: I find it quite interesting that we never heard a peep out of you about all the perils of envoy until after you flowed to AA. You have done and are doing exactly what you are accusing Cujo and the other envoy employees of doing. The moment you got to flow to AA, you have done everything in your limited power to derail the program. You are doing now, the same things you did when you were at Eagle, looking out for your own personal interests. One needs only to go over the AA/USAir Merger forum to see that.

I also share your sentiment that we as pilots would be better off if the whole regional airline compensation model goes away. Trying to destroy flow programs though, is not the way to accomplish this. Creating a singular path from CFI to Mainline is the best way to gradually bring the "regional pilots" back to being represented by one, unified Mainline Union. US Airline managers spent 20 years chipping away at scope to created the whipsaw regional industry, it will take the union a long time to fix the loopholes that our predecessors allowed to happen. The current shortage of pilots is the best time for the mainline unions to do this. Your efforts would be better served to that end, instead of trying to destroy your former employers along with your former coworkers.

No more "gaming" the system for you guys.

Good Luck!

Quite a long-winded post to someone you infer is too long-winded himself and an "idiot". :cool:

Thanks for the lecture though, but with over 30 years in the industry, I understand the past, present and future dynamics. I'm always willing to listen, but you've delivered no bombshells with this post. I've been on this forum for years, (well before AA) and was critical of many things and Eagle (as it was then) did NOT escape those criticisms.

I think you see what you want to see.

As far as me "derailing" anything, that is laughable. Do you REALLY think a single pilot here has made any Envoy related employment decision based on anything I have said in my opinions ?

You really can't be THAT far gone, could you ?

The fact is, present Envoy pilots have done far more then I could ever do in that regard right along with Envoy management and Envoy ALPA. I know I make a convenient pinata, but both your demons and obstacles lie within. All I've done is wave a B.S. flag at those selling a questionable product based on trumped up assumptions for the primary purpose of self-benefit.

I never accused you of being long winded, but yes, I do still think you are an idiot.