Need Advice - Comparing Offers-Express/Envoy
 

Before I start, let me say that I browsed through quite a bit of the ExpressJet and Envoy(Eagle) threads and still feel it is necessary to make this post in order to get the information/opinions I need.

I'm currently entering my senior year at a university as part of its flight program. We currently have arrangements with Envoy, ExpressJet, and Skywest.

I've been more interested in, and been comparing, Envoy and ExpressJet. From my admittedly basic understanding of the nature of the two airlines, I lean more towards wanting to fly with ExpressJet. However, Envoy's offer is far more enticing.

Currently, ExpressJet offers a 'guaranteed' job to graduates of our university (upon reaching 1000 hours of course).

Envoy, on the other hand, does offer a 'guaranteed' job. However, they also are offering a $10,000 signing bonus, which is something I don't believe ExpressJet is offering at any value amount. Envoy is also offering full benefits while flight instructing at the University (or one of their other approved flight schools). This ranges from health benefits to flight benefits.

I'll be flying down to Atlanta with others this upcoming week to do a tour of the ExpressJet and Delta facilities there, along with informational sessions and what not over a two day time span.

Looking for some input. Envoy's recent issues makes me rather hesitant to run over and sign up, but those incentives are quite effective.

Wow........Yeah, might want to do some research on both those carriers before making any decisions.

Despite the nice show ExpressJet may have put on for your school, they not hiring any pilots right now, zero, zip, nada. They are contracting significantly.

Fleet reduction numbers:

Through end of 2014:
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XJT - 52 aircraft (17 CRJ2 - 35 ERJ 145)
SKW - 4 aircraft (CRJ2)

2015:
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XJT - 79 aircraft (20 CRJ2 - 59 ERJ 145)
SKW - 22 aircraft (22 CRJ2)

As far as American Eagle, why don't you go spend some time reading through their current thread (or the 10 others that have been locked over the past weeks.) That should give you a rough idea.

Just curious, you seem very fixated on the idea of a "Guaranteed Job", why is that?

Sometimes, the sure thing, isn't the best option. Don't sell yourself short on options.

Yeah, that's why I noted it as a 'guaranteed' job. They guarantee you a job, they just don't mention WHEN you'll get that job.

Yeah I've browsed through some of the Eagle/Envoy threads, though its a battle of persistence as I wade through the plethora of off-topic comments (I'm looking at you "The useful Envoy thread")

They just happen to be the airlines I've taken most notice in, even before these deals were arranged with our university. I'm open to working for other regionals (or anything really). But I've gotta start somewhere, so I figured I'd get input on these two first and go from there.

Glad you're doing research, and you seem well-read on the facts. But if you spend any significant amount of time on these boards (or talking to regional pilots), you pretty quickly get an idea of these companies' outlooks. And they're not good.

Envoy is being downsized, their future doesn't look bright. They're doing some further negotiations with American Airlines right now. Some employees are optimistic, many are not. Skim through the Envoy threads and you'll get an idea.

ExpressJet is in a similar boat. They're losing money, they have 50-seat jets that are no longer profitable to fly, and SkyWest (their owner) is allowing them to shrink as their planes stop flying (once contracts end).

Here's a big red flag with each of the airlines: their upgrade time is non-existent. Upgrade time is how long it takes to become a Captain. This is important because your end goal is probably to go to a major airline (United, Delta, etc.). To fly for one of them, you need Turbine PIC time (i.e. Captain time). If you never upgrade, or it takes you a long time, it takes that much longer to get to those bigger, better airlines.

A few regionals have upgrade times under 2 years (this is considered extremely fast). But because they're shrinking, Envoy and ExpressJet don't need Captains. This means almost no upgrades for the foreseeable future, and pilots are stuck as permanent First Officers with low pay and no real shot at the majors. Many have gone to other airlines and started from the bottom again.

My advice to you is to go to one of those other airlines with a good outlook so you only need to start at the bottom once. Pick right the first time. I have many friends at ExpressJet and Envoy, unfortunately none of them have upgraded and they'll more than likely end up going to another regional to start over. That's why I hope negotiations work out for Envoy, to prevent that, but we'll see what happens. Some of those friends have predicted their respective airline won't be around in several years, and that's a credible prediction.

Good luck to you in whatever choice you make, but just consider this: the regionals need pilots and you practically have a guaranteed job anywhere you want, so there's no need to commit yourself to any carrier right now. This is especially true if you have hundreds of hours of flight instructing to do first. Build your time, see how the industry looks when you near your 1000 hours.

Again, good luck with whatever career path you choose!

Right, I understand wading through all the BS gets tiresome real quick, it sucks. But honestly, those Eagle guys have every right to be ****ed off as much as they are.

All I'm saying is do your research, and don't be taken by the fancy presentations, and the whole "Guaranteed Job" gimmicks. There are many, many options out there, and just because they aren't guaranteed, doesn't mean they aren't worth exploring.

How far away are you from graduating and/or meeting ATP mins? Because if it is anything over 12 months from now. The regional landscape could, and probably will look quite different than it does today. Two years from now......forget about it, it's anybody's guess. Keep reading, keep an eye onto what's going on, and then make your decision.

More good info, thanks.

Yeah, time is certainly on my side. I don't intend to make a decision in the next few months (or year for that matter). I'm just starting my research early so I'm not scrambling for information at the last minute.

ATP would probably be in a bit less than two years, yeah. I realize that things can change a lot in that time span, especially with the current nature of the industry. As I said in an earlier reply, getting my bearings early on. Will be much easier to keep track of how these (and other airlines) are progressing if I start now rather than playing catchup later. Hell, I feel like I'm playing catchup already as I read through the forum.

Sure thing. Invariably, the ultimate question this thread will probably evolve into is: "Who should I work for?" We argue about that day and night on these boards, but allow me to humbly offer my suggestions. Keep in mind this is as of right now; things could be different in a year.

Mesa - Fast upgrade time, stable, growing, modern fleet.

Compass - Pretty much the same as Mesa.

SkyWest - This is sort of the opposite in that it's not growing and you'll have a very long upgrade (~7 years as of now). However, many of my friends have elected to go here for its well respected treatment of employees.

Horizon - Excellent pay (at least compared to other regionals). Long upgrade, however.

One other deciding factor for you might be the bases these regionals have. I live in Phoenix, so naturally Mesa was an obvious choice for me. Again, this is my humble 2 cents, do your own homework, and best of luck.

Good job man, keep an eye on things. It will pay off multiple times over when you are actually ready to make a decision. But also just be aware too that this industry changes on a dime, all the best laid plans can change quick. Just make the best decision based on all available information at the time, and stick with it. If it doesn't work out, no regrets, and don't second guess yourself.

With an attitude like that, your going to be just fine. This industry could use a lot more people with your attitude and mindset. Good Luck

Thanks, appreciate it.

If you are "hired" through the Envoy offer and get flight benefits while instructing is there any penalty for then not taking the job when you have ATP minimums? If Expressjet is in hiring mode when you hit ATP minimums I doubt you'll have any difficulty getting hired there. I say enjoy the AA flight benefits for now and make a decision when you actually have the flight time.

Also, don't base your hiring on quick upgrade either. That can change very fast. Don't sell yourself short for a quick upgrade. It's cool when you know you will upgrade in a few years, but sucks when trips get canceled and you get no cancellation pay, no trip/duty rigs, 50% deadhead pay, etc.

Ouch! Which regionals have that?

Do remember that you can go one place, get some 121 time and then go some place else better. You don't have to stay with the same regional for 5+ years. Your marketability increases as you get some jet time under your belt. So if you aren't competitive for one of the "good" regionals right now, you will be after one year at XJT or Eagle...keep that in mind as well.

One thing to constantly remember is that this is a business...and it doesn't care about the time you spent preparing for it or your passion for flying airplanes. Treat it as such. The business exists to make money...so do you. AMR wasn't able to make money with Eagle on their terms so what are they doing to them? Comair II and shifting flying to other carriers. None of these companies are going to pay you what you're worth, so what should you do? Use them in the same fashion and shift your talent around to the carriers that enable you to get where you ultimately want to be. The sooner you get on board with that mentality, the easier it will be to not become demoralized.

There is no pilot shortage, but the retirement numbers at the legacies are no lie. So long as they keep making money, hiring should continue and you are in a good position to take advantage of that. Good luck!!!

Enough with the fluffy "good job in doing research" and the girly" good lucks". What this kid needs is a forty of reality in this industry. Not another mother to coddle him and tell him how proud she is of his spelling test results. Let show this little $hit some tough love.

Alright you puke, this industry ain't no playground. At the end of the day, it's about MCE. Maximum Cash Extraction. That's your one and only goal. Why? Because of bi***es. Bi***es care about one thing. Boats. And boats cost money. So consider the regionals all you want but keep you dirty little eyes open for dirty bi***es and other opportunities outside the regionals to make coin. And don't listen to your stupid professors. They are completely out of touch with the industry. Sheeeeit, they're still teaching about how the public is scared of turbo props cuz of the recent string of crashes...in the 90s. Dunces.

Live it up kid. It you go with a regional, get in early... but then get the f$&k out early too. Ain't no long term life at one. I did my time. I spent half a decade at cell block G in the Cumberland wing of O'hare correctional facility. Shared a cell with 11 other dudes. All like me, looking to get out. They couldn't cuz of family and kids. So what I'm saying is have multiple bi***es. Hoes on different corners. Don't be settling down with a main bi*** til you at a job where u stayin long term. You gotz to stay fluid. Flexible. At a moments notice, grab your piece and roll. Boom!

Yea. That's what it's all about.

Republic for one.

Unless you plan to make a career at a regional, don't go to a career regional. Go where there is growth and movement. Ignore "guaranteed" job offers. If they need people so bad that they're trying to lock you in now, that should be a warning sign. Big LOL at "tour the Delta Facilities". XJT has no access to any Delta Facilities, except maybe the concourse C bag room at ATL. Don't be swindled.

Gojet for number two

Rj pilot I have a feeling you already knew that but, it's for the little kiddies out there to see it.

great advice

Come to Endeavor be at delta in 4-5 years!!! Guaranteed!

LOL
 

Need I say more? Nothing is guaranteed in this industry. Period! EtoD included.

Don't forget the QOL potential. Live in domicile.

And I agree, this industry is posed to change dramatically (even within the regional industry). Do what makes sense for you right now, don't count on tomorrow, be flexible and willing to move where it makes sense. TPIC might not be as important in 2 years as it is now (I've had friends hired at majors without it).

Set your sights on a major from the beginning...for a 20 something...don't aim at a career in the regionals.

Learn to fly a UAV (a joke, or maybe not)?!!

Good luck. You really are at the front end of what will be a wave!!

I left XJT for CPZ after 1 year and couldn't be happier. I forgot what it felt like to have hope....

I will also add....
When you get to your regional dont be content just flying the line. Do something that sets you apart from the other 11,000 apps that the majors have on file. Think of all the things you can do that will build your résumé and earn you points. We have had a few lower time FOs leave XJT for legacies bc of their résumés.

Hadn't seen all the new posts on this thread. Thanks for the information everyone, it's appreciated. Particularly the one explaining to me the importance of not having a main b*tch early on. I'll be sure to keep that advice close to my heart.

That being said, I felt I should address this post.

We had a very extensive tour of Delta's headquarters, everything from their training facilities (pilot and FA) to their food court/mini-mall area. I also managed to snag a 1/2 hour of full motion 777 sim time while I was there. So yeah.

Could you provide an example of something that would set a person apart?

Only thing notable things I have currently are mostly collegiate. GPA (3.8), Double major of Flight Operations (our pilot program) and Aviation Management (with an airline concentration) and a business administration minor. And president of a student organization.

Other than that, working on my second year as an aircraft maintenance assistant at the university's hangars.

Looking to get some multi-engine internships in the near future, but that'd be corporate in nature of course.

I am in a similar situation as the original post, trying to decide between ExpressJet and Envoy. I've interviewed with both and have conditional offers from both. A lot has changed in a year, anyone have any good updates? Thanks!

I think Mesa should be at the bottom of any list. I'd choose Compass, Skywest and PSA over Mesa or Horizon.

I would go for quality of life/stability. You never know when the quick upgrade will change.

Honestly, a double major or any major in aviation anything doesn't set you apart. You're like the thousands of Riddle, Purdue, and UND grads out there. If you can get a major in a hard science like engineering and a 3.8 GPA, that makes you stand out. Do yourself a favor and get a master's degree in something not at all named aviation.

Let's not beat around the bush here. If you have a degree from Hamburger University, there's a chance most if not all regionals will give you a call.

I think we are talking about major airline competitiveness. Regionals would take a guy out of Truck mechanic school, fly him for 30 hours and put him in the right seat if they could right now.