Envoy guys....
 

Isn't it odd how happy you guys were when you got the 25 airplanes from TSA in 2009 putting 133 pilots on the street?

How quick we forget. Now you know how we felt.

Enjoy your evening...

You are joking, right?

If you are too much of an idiot to see the stark differences here between that and what has happened between AE and PSA, no one can help you.

+1...
What you said!

Mother American returned 25 airplanes so they could furlough AE pilots. AE pilots were rejoicing at the fact that these airplanes were coming back to "mother Eagle" after their time serving TWE routes with an AA regional carrier.

Please explain to me the difference...

You got leased airplanes back on property only to be able to furlough and eagle guys were rejoicing at the fact that these "unstaffable" airplanes were coming back. Forgetting the fact it was putting TSA AND eagle guys on the street.

Pot meet kettle.

I loved the looks you guys gave us in MIA btw

You left out the part where PSA voted in a pay cut to get the planes while every other regional stood their ground against concessions in a time of record profit. It's not just Envoy who hates you guys. It's every regional pilot. I don't even work for Envoy.

Keep patting yourself on the back and justifying your decision though.

RAH and XJT didn't say no under the specter of "say no and we will shut you down". What is happening to Envoy is happening because they voted no, not because PSA voted yes.

Methinks you need some work in basic arithmetic
When did returning 10 aircraft equate to stealing flying?
Then again something about fuel accounting and theft did not help matters either

Envoy guys....
 

TSA had those airplanes at a time when Envoy was the only regional allowed to fly AA feed. The only reason those airplanes were able to stay at TSA is because they were TWA feed before the merger between TWA and AA. When the CPAs were up they went to Envoy because they had to.

PSA voted to cut their contract at a time when the contract a wasn't even amendable. The PSA MEC could have told Parker to pound sand and not have negotiated at all instead they under take concessions in a bid to take aircraft from Envoy. Unfortunately PDT is about to do the same. We are truly out own worst enemy,

To the OP....

You have no clue to what you are talking about.

AMR Management removed planes from the EGL fleet, which was grieved, and gave them to TSA. After that little contract for TWE flying was over, AMR brought the planes back to EGL.

Egl never took planes from TSA, but rather loaned them to TSA.

Careful fellas,

PatrickBateman told me awhile back that he lifts - DAILY. He can and will beat up everybody's dad if he gets angry enough.

This! Not to mention how poorly the a/c were maintained upon returning.

This is correct. Seems the original poster was in 3rd grade when this took place.

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

It's ok sonny boy, it's the internet, you're safe.

OK now that it has been established that the OP is seriously off factually, someone please post something that will immediately get this thread closed too...

Correct. There never were 25 airplanes involved in the first place, it was 10....at least from Eagle. They were returned to Eagle at TSA contract termination. Sadly, this is prime example of proof there are plenty of shiftless parasites infesting this profession using any and every erroneous assumption, excuse or rationalization to justify their parasitic desires. :(

Relax guys, I think he's part of that whole Yale thing. Anyway, I have to return some video tapes.

Oddly,
Pilots point little pilot peepees at one another, yet no one thinks to aim the stink eye at the true offender, management. Management made the decision, furloughed the pilots and played shuffleboard with employees lives, lets place the scorn and hate where it belongs. There is a reason why England controlled India with just 3000 officers for so long, it kept the caste system alive and strong for a long time, just like the US airline system. Wanna hate? Hate the managers and blood, retirement and QOL life sucking airline managers who make our lives miserable on a daily basis.

As long as we are bringing up rumors of the past, I heard back in the 90s Eagle ALPA offered to fly AA MD-80s for $80/hr 80 hr guarantee. Is that a crazy story or is it based in fact, only reason I ask is because an old Eagle guy told me.

With all due respect, you need to get your facts straight.

AMR leased 10 EMB-145's to TSA. Those aircraft were originally supposed to go to Eagle, but AMR wanted to play games with code share, inherited the TWA contracts, etc. When the contract was up, those aircraft went BACK to Eagle. We neither voted to change our CBA, nor stabbed anyone in the back for those aircraft. I don't know ANYONE that was "happy" about putting other pilots out of work. If you're going to throw stones, or attempt to justify PSA's actions, you better know what the heck you're talking about first.

"from TSA," hahaha... that was funny. At least you have a great career in stand up if you ever get furloughed.

Jonathan Bukovic?

That version is fiction. The real story on that is that a handful of Eagle pilots (perhaps 20 or so) including at least one then LEC rep (a pariah) started an "80-80-80" campaign. It was never an Eagle ALPA position and even if it was, national would have axed it as politically, it would have caused a firestorm among their mainline bread and butter. Not only would national have snuffed it, AMR management would have never touched such a ridiculous proposal as it would cost 50 times more moving 260 mainline aircraft to a regional many of whose pilots couldn't successfully transition to anyway. I doubt AMR could even get insurance for such a preposterous ploy. So in essence, 20 rogue pilots with an absurd idea whipped hundreds of AA pilots into a lather and some are still floating in that foam today.

It was a complete molehill unworthy of notice, so try not to make it look like a mountain. It was an emotional, knee-jerk reaction by these 20 or so guys to APA's proposal to AMR that AA pilots fly Eagle's CRJ-700's crewed with AE F/A's and worked on by AE mechanics.

Yea, I thought it was most likely BS, just had to check since it was an Eagle guy who told me. He brought it up as a justification for a yes vote at PDT, kinda like ,"hey we're all a bunch of back stabbing a holes, Eagle included, so go for it".

The Eagle guy who told you this was probably RJPilot. He's the only one here who wants you all to vote yes.

OK, The TA that PSA signed is not a pay cut. Quite the contrary. We will get raises with each and every 900 on property.
Plus it gets us new routes and other options that improve the QOL at PSA. If a PSA upgrades he/she will get a 40-50% pay bump.
Not sure how this equates to a pay cut.
Yes we did have pay freezes, at year 12 and 4. A lot of us aren't happy about that but the TA does mean for the next couple of years i will be making a lot more money.

This is what every FO and JR CA at envoy couldn't understand. Ohh, but the inflation etc....

Now FO's won't upgrade, (pay frozen) and Jr CA's will go back to FO which equals pay cut. But hey, this will show Parker!

Meanwhile, ALPA is working hard with strategic planning.


DALLAS (AP) -- For passengers traveling between smaller cities and large hub airports, the ticket may say Delta, American or United, but they're likely flying on a regional airline whose planes are painted in the major carrier's colors.

This arrangement helps the big airlines pack their planes more cheaply and contributes to recent record profits.

It isn't as wonderful for the regional airlines, however. Their profits are shrinking, costs are rising, and they're having trouble finding enough pilots to work for the salaries they pay.

Consumers should be concerned. Fares could rise as regional airlines are forced to raise pilots' pay. Aviation experts predict that some regional airlines may fail, which could lead to reduced service at smaller airports.

This week, an airline industry group said that 86 communities - from former hubs such as Cleveland and Memphis to small cities like Dickinson, North Dakota, and Hollis, Alaska - have lost at least 10 percent of their flights since last year. Regional airlines say the trend will get worse this winter and next year because of a pilot shortage.

About half of all passenger flights in the U.S. are operated by regional airlines. The planes don't say Republic, SkyWest or Mesa on the side - they are painted in the colors and logos of brands such as Delta Connection, American Eagle or United Express.

A decade ago, many of the regionals were earning steady profits. That began to change when several of the big airlines went through bankruptcy and rewrote their contracts with regional airlines to cap the small guys' profit margins.

Regionals that boasted 20 percent profit margins in the late 1990s suddenly had their margins capped at around 12 percent, a level some don't even reach, says Robert Mann, an airline-industry consultant.

The most successful regional airlines are still making money, but far less. SkyWest, which earned at least $110 million each year from 2005 through 2008, made just over $50 million each of the past two years. Republic earned about $80 million a year from 2006 through 2008, but earned just $26.7 million last year. It lost money in 2010 and 2011.

Many regional pilots look to move up to the bigger airlines - and better pay - after a few years. But with recession, the 9-11 attacks, retrenchment at the big airlines, and an increase in the pilot retirement age to 65, it turned into "a lost decade" of career stagnation, says William Sprague, a pilot for American's Envoy Air subsidiary. He expected to spend five years at a regional; it has turned into 17.

Now American is shrinking Envoy's fleet in a cost-cutting squeeze. "The future of our carrier looks bleak. I've never seen morale lower," says Sprague, who is also a union leader. He says many pilots are bolting for low-cost carriers like Spirit, Allegiant and Frontier, or even to fly corporate planes.

The regional airline industry may soon experience the kind of consolidation that thinned the ranks of the largest airlines between 2008 and the end of 2013.

Helane Becker, an analyst for Cowen and Co., says the regionals face a basic problem: Their fares are set by their contracts with big-airline patrons. That leaves them little control over revenue and limited ability to pass along higher costs.

"When fuel prices go up, the major airlines can raise ticket prices," but the regionals must wait several years until they can re-negotiate their contracts with the major airlines, Becker says. She recently predicted that Envoy and SkyWest's ExpressJet unit could be shut down as the sector consolidates.

Competition among the regionals is fierce.

"The biggest cost they can control is what they pay their labor," says William Swelbar, an aviation researcher at MIT and board member at Hawaiian Airlines. "You need to squeeze labor to be competitive and win flying contracts."

The result is that pay for regional first officers, or co-pilots, starts around $22,000 a year, according to the Air Line Pilots Association. That's after applicants might spend more than $100,000 for education and flying time to qualify. Union officials say such low wages discourage many qualified pilots from signing up.

The regional airlines blame the pilot shortage on a new federal rule that requires shorter days and more rest for pilots, and another that raised the amount of flight time needed for beginning airline pilots from 250 hours to 1,500 hours. That narrowed the pipeline of potential pilots, according to Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, the industry's trade group.

"Even if you were to double or triple the salaries tomorrow, that is not going to increase the pipeline of pilots overnight," Cohen says.

Regional airlines have cited the shortage in cutting service this year. Republic grounded 27 planes, and a smaller regional, Great Lakes Airlines, ended government-subsidized service to several small communities.

The regionals agreed to the current conditions, so they can't whine - they just have to adapt, says Bryan Bedford, the CEO of Republic Airways Holdings Inc.

If pilot salaries rise, Bedford says, it is his job to find offsetting costs and live within the contract. "It's not Delta's problem, it's not United's problem, it's not American's problem - it's Republic's problem."

And just for the record...

The 10 airplanes that TSA returned N600-N609 were in such poor shape and badly maintained that we could only get 7 of them back online.

Not joining in on this troll post but I'll point out that the airplanes were returned with the exact parts eagle gave to TSA. TSA had to damn near overhaul the airplanes to make them Fly able, they kept the old parts, and returned them to you. This was well known and documented by the STL FSDO at the time.

Some of the rattiest transport aircraft I've been on are Eagle 145s. They are completely hammered to crap and are sad from every perspective.

I was going to post something detailed about the above, but decided twice to erase the whole thing. In short, the above is bravo Sierra.

You think the 145's are bad. Try the ATR's they had out of Puerto Rico.

No, actually XJT management did threaten shutdown and bankruptcy, and the pilot group did say no anyhow. And we neither got shutdown or bankrupted.

Oh the huge manatee, pilots leaving to "even" fly bizav...

:rolleyes: