ATTN: Envoy NYC based Pilots.
 

Endeavor Air intends to offer an informational session and on-site interviews for potential pilot candidates at the Hilton JFK March 26, 2015 0900-1400 EST.

Upgrades are how long at Endeavor again?

ATTN: Envoy NYC based Pilots.
 

Money is nice!!

Lol get that outta here

If I were a NYC based envoy FO, Endeavor would be my choice. You'd make more money first year than you do right now and Endeavor is on the mend.
The thought of not having to work for an AAG carrier just to spite the nutjobs that ruined my great carrier would be worth it to me too.

Haha he got owned. No, Envoy I hope you guys flow up quickly. I was reading in the PSA thread that there are guys coming in with "32 hours multi". Are these the pilots that are going to take over the Eagle flights out of LGA? Can you imagine that if a senior Delta crew can run off a runway, how would a 32-hours-of-multi guy be cleared for the Expressway Visual to 31? Not to knock on them, but I hope the lack of experience doesn't...well, you get it. Perhaps I'm being sinister.

Don't forget that a few years ago, people with 250 hours total were sitting in the right seat. Some of those guys had 10 hours of multi.

Actually, most regionals have lowered their mins. to 25 hours of multi, including Skywest and Compass.

Pathetic. People have no business flying a jet with 25 hours of multi.

Was there anywhere besides the turboprop operators that had the 10 multi? If I remember, it was only PDT with zero multi required. The jets that went as low as 250 were mostly 100 multi. Even then, there was not a huge amount of 250 guys. The ones that came through eagle had a 30% washout rate. But back then, you could easily replace them with another until you got one worth a damn.

Serious question: What's your ideal number? i.e. What do you think is a reasonable amount of multi time to fly a jet?

Honestly, the turboprop guys are the ones that need the multi time more. I am typed on three jets, but the most difficult v1 cuts I did were in the BE 1900.

25 hours of multi is nothing. Zip. Dangerous, and no business flying a jet at all.

It has less to do with 2 engines and more to do with speed and complexity.

I flew with plenty 250 hour wonders and low time multi guys. Some were really good. For the most part though, Low total time and low multi time guys hang on to the tail of the aircraft a lot longer and are a nuisance rather than a help on the flight deck.

Fair enough. But you didn't answer the question. How much time do you personally think is a good amount before coming into this job?

Mo than 25 my friend. I remember doing MEI add-on's with clowns who has 25 hours of multi and would try and kill me multiple times a flight. Good thing turbine engines are so reliable.

I feel ya. There may or not be some individuals who have to wait til after sims for their oral. They scurrrrr me.

Spoken like a true idiot. I've flown with many 25 hour multi guys and many of them were just as good as 400 hour multi guys.

LOL, I guess you don't know the requirements of a Comm/Mult Rating.

Leave Envoy for Endeavor? Why not just go to PSA, Compass, TSA?

Haha! Do you think for a single second that people should go spend $250/hour to go build additional multi time so that in return they can be paid $24/hour if they don't have to?

It's obvious that a first year F/O is going to have a steep learning curve, but, everyone has to start somewhere - they passed their multi engine commercial checkride and went and built a couple of dozen hours - let the airline who's paying you poverty wages take the brunt for your lack of hours and allow you to build them on property with Cappy in the left seat.

Really during someone's multi add on, and MEI if they go that route, they do a bunch of simulated engine failures for the rating then don't practice any/much more. If they go build time somehow in a multi, unless they are instructing, they are then just flying with two fans spinning...hardly helping multi-engine skills, where the critical "skill" exists only in an engine failure. So are you saying flying a baron around for 200 additional hours, with both engines spinning, will make someone a better (ME) pilot, better prepared for an airline job? I don't buy it. Not when initial sims are 30-40 hours of primarily engine failures, plus recurrent doing the same thing. If you can't successfully respond to an engine failure at that point, you probably shouldn't (and won't be for long) in this profession.

So by your argument, the only way to become safe enough to fly a multi is to instruct in a multi for hundreds of hours. Where are the students going to come from where you can build that much multi time? Point is, you gotta start somewhere, and being an MEI waiting for enough multi students to get a decent amount of multi can be extremely difficult, if not impossible for many.

Clearly insurance underwriters are accepting the "risk" of having low multi time guys flying 76 seat jets. In some cases, insurance companies are taking the risk with fighter guys who have nothing but single engine/centerline thrust time transitioning to jets that hold substantially more than 76 people. Military trained or not, they haven't done anything that requires significant rudder input and severely degraded flight characteristics other than sims for V1 cuts/engine failures before they start flying pax around. Please tell me how unsafe that is.

You still haven't answered the question of "what's the magic number?" When did you become safe enough to operate a jet? How many hours do I need before I am ok to fly a jet? I'm going to quit and go rent a baron at $400 an hour until you think I'm safe enough. How did you build your multi time to bypass the "dangerous" pilot zone? You must be that guy who was born with 3000 hours and 1000 of multi, all at night in ice, flipping through the winter ops flip cards you made for your company while teaching your captain a few things you've picked up in your 10 years as an FO and keeping him in check.

Since you will probably tl;dr this, here's something you can chew on. Clearly the FAA, airlines, and insurance companies don't agree with you.

Retention bonus.

Going from envoy to PSA is a great way to get yourself on people's bad side. Also Endeavor currently offers a NY base. Hence the title.

Keep listening to those who are still saying that management is bluffing.:D

Goodluck!

Retention bonus means much more money, NYC base, but above all else, not working for Dougweiser and his BS airline segment.

It's obvious AAG is going to continue to play their umpteen tegionals against each other. Just because TSA, PSA, and Compass are the favorites now, doesn't mean they will be later. History has shown Doug wil pee on them too at some point. Why not go work for a major that at least has less regionals to whipsaw, and head for a regional who is just getting done being peed on?

My experience has been that you don't go where the action is hot because it is generally over before you get there. Go where it is about to be hot. A bit of a gamble yes but think about it: the musical chairs game chasing fast upgrades will be over in the next year. Where would you want to be then? My money would be on a wholly owned because that is where the majors will invest to bring aboard new hires, thus the most growth.

Too funny. Company sends out a msg asking the pilot group to share information about our hiring efforts in NY and within minutes someone is puking up the company line. To answer the previous question, upgrade is a long time right now. I'm at 7+ years and on reserve...as an FO. I left Eagle for this place in 2008 for a quick upgrade. Didn't really work out.

Notice how Envoy and Endeavor are paying retention/sign on bonuses. But not Compass, TSA, PSA.

Great example. The problem with some of these FO's is the ME ME attitude. I want to upgrade, I want the money, I want weekends off and I want it NOW. Go ahead, Jump ship for endeavour or whatever it is, that retention money is way good to pass regardless of starting all over again with no upgrade in sight.....

Good Luck!

and qol? not commuting halfway across the country?
what is that worth?

Facebiten,

Clearly, you haven't spent any time in tactical aviation. Or, analysed the risks as have the insurers.

GF

Exactly.. Even Worse than at Eagle isn't it?

Anyone that leaves here and goes to Endeavor with more than a couple years invested is a complete moron.

You are just jumping to another shrinking craphole with no upgrade ever. Very similar to what has happened here. There is a reason for the bonuses over there. Because their shrinkage and no movement is absolutely awful, just like ours. Who cares about the retention when you're gonna start over at the BOTTOM of another stagnant seniority list all over again and be stuck as an FO on RSV.. FOREVER.. again. Having a base in NY clearly isn't worth anything for a regional. That isn't guaranteed. Those come and go at the regionals with a few months notice. Obviously, anyone working at Eagle should know that by now.

I agree Eagle is horrendous right now (thanks to PSA and scumbag-airways) but starting over at Endeavor is no better. At least we have better movement #'s of people leaving at the top.

All These regional pilot poaching vultures are disgusting.

I can't wait to see everyone of these regionals implode in a few years. Including mine. I also really can't wait to see all the rats jumping ship to the "other" real d-bag operations for quick upgrades have that completely blow up in their face.

I don't care if people want to get out. After nearly a decade at this dump, so do I.. But at least wait to go somewhere decent that's an upwards move.. I have seen so many lateral moves over the last decade backfire on people that I've lost count. Maybe 10% have actually worked out..

People can do whatever they want. I just think Eagle>Endeavor is a stupid move for anyone who's not a new hire still. Eagle>PSA people may as well be blacklisted for life..

Yeah heaven forbid FOs want to do as well as their counterparts and get out of the low pay doldrums. Those selfish FOs!!

For NY FOs(quoting Cujo) Why they should lose short notice OT ability, lose time commuting across the country, lose more money needing a crashpad.... when they can start at Endeavor as a new hire making more money than they do here, stay based close to home with the ability to run in and cherry pick OT to make ends meet, and not need a crashpad.
If you live in the northeast, which a large percentage of NY FOs do, then commuting is just stupid.
It's not about current upgrade time at Endeavor. It's about future. Endeavors shrink is pretty much over while envoy still has to slice in half, again. If I were one of them, I'd want to be at place done shrinking, making more money than they ever would as an FO here.....oh and not commuting halfway across he country on the very carriers that took your flying.

Upgrade at Eagle is almost 8 years and forecast to be 10-11.
I am amazed to see the management damae control on his thread.

Far from management.. Lol. Just don't want to see the people I work with make a bad decision influenced by poachers with an agenda to go to some other dump with no future.

Eagles upgrade is less than 8 years. I upgraded in about 7. Still bad? Yup. Not arguing that. Our junior CA is mid 07 right now.. The senior FO's right now are getting screwed. Things will take a little while to shake out and get that moving again. Can't really predict it. What are the Endeavor "downgrades" seniority right now? I honestly don't know anymore. Have they been moved back to the left seat yet??

I love how people just make up mythical Eagle upgrade forecasts. Who came up with that? You? Lol. There is no official projection on anything here right now and impossible to say for someone junior here. It's still completely up in the air what will happen here. We don't know how many 170's we will end up with. We don't know if all those aircraft projected to leave will actually do so in a short period of time. We don't know how fast that transfers will "actually" happen. They are already delayed on the CRJ transfers from the projected 3 down to about 1.5- 2 per month due to de-conformity taking a couple weeks each by MX and that could easily back up even more since it hasn't really even cranked up yet. (I just recently heard this from the fleet manager.) We don't know if we will get a retention bonus as well. It may be equal to or greater than Endeavors. It's being discussed. I would guess "possibly" but probably not until they get us to the size they want.. Who really knows? Definitely not the line pilots..

We don't know exactly what movement will be like with the flow here. It may continue on as projected or it could slow down again. Right now we are told we are losing 2 months of flow this year at 20/mo due to un-deferrals.. then it will increase to 30/mo around NOV with the first 170 on property. If that # keeps true we should flow approximately 180 more this year, and will flow 360/yr in 2016 and beyond.. plus outside hiring attrition and retirements of lifers creeping up on 65. Many of our Mid-junior CA's are also bailing for LCC's and majors now and that is increasing due to all the bad news here, not decreasing. We have a lot of highly qualified people here with tons of hours due to our longevity issues. Attrition to outside carriers from here when hiring really picks up will be sky-high.

As bad as things are here we still will have the highest attrition of CA's leaving per month in the industry, By far.. (*So long as AA is hiring). Look at the retirement #'s and decide for yourself if they will be hiring and flowing full classes over the next 5 years. I'd guess thats a yes.. There certainly could be some slow downs or hiccups over the next few years, But barring a major catastrophe we will still flow a LOT of people out of here rapidly. What other regional will be losing 360+ CA's per year? Likely over 400+ with outside attrition. A 10 year + upgrade in that case is history..

To be fair.. I can't say what Endeavor upgrades will be 5 years from now either. But they will be no better than ours without drastic changes to the plan over there. Or we could just Comair tomorrow as well. Who knows..

What is the commitment for that signin/ retention bonus at endeavor?

For what it's worth, the latest Endeavor Realignment has 35 upgrades.

If you have 25 hours of multi there is no way you should be flying a 76 seat jetttttttt. Unfortunately, like most regulation in aviation any changes will be written in blood. Sooner or later, especially combined with a minimum time upgrade CA, there will be a smoking hole. The rest of us will have to deal with the over regulation that is sure to follow.

Nothing. Nada. Zilch.