When does the rest of the news come out?

As soon as cujo puts down the crack rock he's smoking

"Envoy to Retain More CRJ-700 Flying: Pedro's announcement today means that we will transfer 12 instead of 18 CRJ-700s to PSA during 2015. Envoy will continue to fly the remaining fleet of 35 CRJ-700s until transfers to PSA resume in of the second half of 2016. This translates into an additional 30 Captain positions, bringing our forecasted requirement for Captain upgrades between now and the end of 2016 to around 230. This is terrific news, expect a new vacancy bid shortly to cover these new flying requirements."

[ sound of heels clicking together ] There's no place like home, there's no place like home, there's no place......... :rolleyes:

That's 12.7 upgrades monthly. Of course, they will be flowing 20 captains/month until later this year, then theoretically 30 captains/month. Couple that to an average of 15-20 month going elsewhere (a few captains) and that means Envoy shrinks. It HAS to. If they are only going to upgrade 13 pilots/month to captain and 20 and soon 30 will be flowing (which doesn't include outside captain attrition), the math gets fuzzier UNLESS, Envoy shrinks.

Sounds VERY shaky to me to claim it's a good time to be an Envoy pilot. A more senior one about to upgrade or flow, perhaps, but a new-hire joining a still shrinking carrier dependent on fuzzy math and "projections" ?

Caveat Emptor.

Sounds to me this is an inadvertent admission Envoy will indeed continue to shrink.

230 upgrades drops most junior captain to mid '08 hire.

We know Envoy is going to continue to shrink...20 to PDT, 30 to XJet, 20 to TSA. Mgmt is just omitting these facts in hope that we forget about the ERJs disappearing.

Then it will jump to 2010. 2011 will take a while to get through.. then another jump to 2013.. 2013-2015 will move more quickly because there isn't that many compared to where we are now. 7yr upgrade for current senior FO's doesn't mean 7yr upgrade for new hires..

Pilots still here by DOH:

2007 - 248 (about Half are already CA's)
2008 - 158
2009 - 0
2010 - 122
2011 - 350
2012 - 8
2013 - 94
2014 - 86
2015 - 27

Correct. Also another 20 Capts selected to flow today.

And if hired today that puts about 965 pilots ahead of you or using rws estimate of 230, 730 pilots to upgrade Jan 2017 before they can. That makes upgrade about 3-3.5 right now.

BTW there is more good news coming.

If so, in 1.5 years at the end of 2016 that will make the most junior captain an 8.5 year pilot, yet under mason........er cujo665 and his buddy the Volleyball's claims, the Envoy new-hire of today would be 1 year from upgrade as a 1.5 year pilot with 7 years difference in longevity.

Fuzzy.........very, very fuzzy. :cool:

But even more so, I think it's overly optimistic.

You really do have some hate man.

The math isn't fuzzy. Keep going with above - okay so 2008 hires mostly finished by the end of next year. In 2017 2008 hires finish, along with the 2010 hires, and some of the 2011 hires.

That leaves just over 200 guys for 2018. So let's see....if hired today, you will see an upgrade some time in 2018. Nothing fuzzy about it except what your actual motivations are. Oh gee, that's 2.5 years from now.

Are you really this much full of hate just cuz poor wittle diddums didn't work out here? Or are you on someone else's agenda? Acting like a giant idiotic parrot makes me wonder...especially when you keep calling clear math "fuzzy".

It's not the 7 year difference in longevity that matters. It's the number of pilots between you. With only 730 between u and upgrade (btw is less then half of what it was 5 years ago).

However that's still a lot of pilots to upgrade in only 12 months (jan 2017-jan 2018) and without any additional improvements will be very hard to make. There is more positive news that should be coming down the pipe that will further reduce the upgrade time to about 2.5 years

Thanks for the laugh. I have little doubt this is all you see, but that's not surprising.


The fuzziness is assuming all will go as "projected" (there's a reason that word is being used, my friend :rolleyes:) hence my statement in that post of it being optimistic. The longevity issue was more of a statement, not a conclusion and if you read my past posts, you'd have noted I stated it was not the math itself that was the foundation of fuzziness, but the assumptions that are its foundation. I realize I'm talking WAY over your head though as it's buried in the ground like an Ostrich.

...and no poor wittle diddums worked out just fine there..........and here. ;) , but I think there's an excellent chance your fantasies won't wotk out there and then it will be you full of hate. :eek:

The truth is, good things will only happen at Envoy if they can attract new pilots. As pilots flow out of the top, there needs to be new blood coming in. Once the company finishes shrinking, the new hires will need to equal the attrition. The problem is, Cujo/Mason/and all of the other screen names that are being used by the same name knows that there is no way that Envoy will be able to attract new pilots. That is why they are making up these ridiculous statistics that have no truth behind them.

He is attacking other airlines and pleading to get new pilots to come to Envoy, and everyone can smell the desperation. It is pitiful.

I could not imagine working at a company that employs people like Cujo and his cronies, nor recommending anyone to go and work there.

The flows will stop once the shrinking stops. They will not cancel flights at Envoy in order to keep people moving to mainline. Parker has a LONG history of lying and going against contracts. Just use common sense. Envoy has no future.

Yes, those are the "projections".

Don't forget all the pilots that will have to be hired to maintain Envoy at its present size. But how can that happen when by the end of 2016 with 14.7 pilots upgrading per month for 230, TWICE that many are supposed to flow to AA (80/till November, then 30/month through 2016) ?

That's a net loss of 230 captains slots coupled with a theoretical requirement to hire All the pilots lost between then or perhaps 700 or so through 2016. Sorry..........too much contradiction there to be anything but fuzzy to me. It works for the Crusader though who is definitely on a crusade. :rolleyes:

Movement at any airline is based on projections.

For someone who only made it to a legacy due to the flow, you seem to bite the hand that fed you a lot.

Haha. I've got less than 3 years to go. Things have worked out fine for me and I have zero complaints. Unlike yourself, I want to see the people underneath reap rewards as well.

Envoy to keep CRJs longer
 

It's important to remember that Envoy (PSA, and PDT) are wholly owned. What we have here somewhat mirrors the situation at Endeavor. They signed a bankruptcy deal, got shrunk, and are now back on the upswing with 80k bonuses to every pilot on property. AAG knows this and is playing their hand accordingly. This announcement is just the beginning.

I don't think you'll see 80k in bonuses at the AAG wholly owned's though. I think they have something much bigger and more of a long term solution in the works. And it involves a cradle to grave type of approach, not just a short term bonus. I know that AA or Parker hasn't ever been called innovative, but I think they could be soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My point all along. Projections are not guarantees, but some seem to be intent of representing them as such here.

This is not only irrelevant, it's in error. Neither any of your present union leadership nor your present management had anything to do with where I am today and neither did AAG's present management. How I got to AA has little bearing on what is occurring now in the sales department at Envoy, but what DID occur in the past is VERY relevant and what is likely to become more realistic, but hey.........if it gets your rocks off to make these statements, knock yourself out.

Trust me, I only want the best for present and future Envoy pilots, it's just they have a bad habit of believing anything they hear and refusing to be students of history.

People keep saying it, and I hope it's true. But I don't know if I believe it. I think it makes much more sense for AAG to keep its regional feed cheap and keep whipsawing us. The fact is that AA is a legacy. They will never be hurting for pilots with or without us.

Well, I certainly hope the "haha" doesn't come back around to bite you in the ***. As it stands now, you only THINK you have three years to go. ;)

Good for you. I certainly hope you have the opportunity to become what I apparently am, that being one who could only get a job with a legacy carrier by flow-through. :rolleyes: As for the "people under me" claim, I'm not so sure. If that were true, you'd be spending less time mired in a desperate sales pitch to lure in others based only on projections and hypotheticals and more time considering the risks and realities of Envoy right now considering AAG still has made no commitment to Envoy pilots and Envoy is claiming it will flow twice as many captains as they plan to upgrade in the next 18 months.

I only see someone concerned with themselves and willing to throw others under the bus if it means they can walk across the street (or the terminal alley) without getting their shoes dirty.

Doesn't sound like it. Otherwise your posts would point out positives as well as negatives. Seems like your sole mission in life lately is to persuade any potential new hire reading these forums from ever coming here again at any cost. Directly harming all of your prior fellow colleagues in the process and helping AAG to continue the slow piecing out of our carrier due to inability to staff. Things aren't flowers and rainbows here but they aren't as negative as you make it out to be. I don't buy 2.5 yr upgrade either mathematically, unless something big changes soon.. but 3-4yrs with a flow a few after that is attainable. Which ain't that bad considering what we endured this last decade.

You should add a disclaimer in your signature for everyone to read:

"FYI: Even though I love pointing out every way Envoy could possibly fail or screw you over. I actually DID flow through from Envoy to AA, it took a while due to the lost decade of hiring, but It did happen". ~Eaglefly

So you didn't flow? you were hired off the street at AA? Were you hired at another legacy?

I made no comment on current management or ALPA leadership and I am quite sure my union/management had nothing to do with you flowing through to AA.

I've got 3 years to go whether I like it or not. If this place sunk tomorrow I would be fine: my nest egg is more than I will ever need.

So once again your ASSumptions are just that; I've got nothing to lose...just want to see others do well and we have plenty of young CAs and FOs that deserve it. This place will do fine, even with the bitter little fat guys like you still trying to drown it.

Another illiterate Envoy pilot. :cool:

Go back and read some of my posts. I do mention some positives, but refuse to bolster hypotheticals and projections, nor validate shiftless salesmen. You know, I almost hope some of you get hosed......almost. But, I simply can't fall to your level of doing that like luring in the unsuspecting with tall tales and bold promises. If the "projections" fall short and you cry to the heavens, you'll only have yourselves to blame.

I promise not to snicker should that occur even though it would be well earned. ;) BTW, I've heard from a few Envoy pilots today that basically say what I'm saying........that's it's all puffed-up B.S. and they don't believe it and say many they talk to don't either.

So which one of you is right ?

Seems I'm not the only one unconvinced and there are many pilots there who aren't as well.

...and yet another illiterate..........

Oh, what's the use....... I can see now why so many of you got flat-out fleeced during the 1113. :cool:


None of those hands fed me, which was the answer to your irrelevant statement and even if they did, it doesn't change the reality that you're PROJECTED to flow X number of pilots to AA in Y time and you're upgrading HALF the number of captains you're supposed to be losing in the next 18 months. Even Batman couldn't solve that riddle.

Then if the flow quacks, you'll be fine. Great !

My ASSumptions ?

Bitter little "fat" guy ?

Too funny. I'm FAR from fat, but I can see when you've got nowhere to run, hurling insults is the only avenue left. You DO know that action belies someone who has lost control of a disagreement, yes ? Anyhoo, it still doesn't change the fact you're a B.S. artist here on a failed crusade. Envoy the evening, because it's a beautiful day and remember to be of strong cheer, because........

It's a good time to be an Envoy Pilot !

That would be you. I am not at Envoy, never claimed to be. I am just surprised at your rhetoric toward Envoy considering that is what enabled you to make it to a legacy.

I find your expertise on all things AA/Envoy to be amusing.

Yeah, it's unbelievable. When he's not machine gunning negative posts on this board, he's trolling eaglelounge doing the exact same thing as "Thrustlever". Before that he was the multi-thousand poster "Lord Hummugus". That was when he was still just a lowly peon Eagle pilot.

His problem is, he thinks he's smarter than everyone else. His comments all stem from his belief that every pilot at Envoy is just a gullible sap that he needs to talk down to, and set straight. He was stuck at eagle for far longer than he hoped, and if ANYONE shows any hope or optimism that it may work out better for them, he tries to shoot them down immediately. You're right, for someone who got to AA from Eagle via the flowthrough, you'd think he'd be a little more humble or have something a little more positive to say.

Well, you don't comprehend my points well, so your conclusions about me aren't surprising to me. At any rate, I'm glad you at least find me amusing. :)

Wow. I love getting new names so often even though I have no idea what a "Lord Hummugus" is. I still prefer "thrustlever" to all the others though.

I'd love to be more humble, but SOMEONE has to highlight all the B.S. being spouted here by some to lure others to pad their own path. Not everyone is a gullible sap at Envoy and if you too had read my past posts instead of flying off the rails into predicatbility.....*sigh* .........this is getting to be an epidemic with some of you guys.......you'd note many of the ENVOY pilots I talk to personally tell ME it's mostly unsubstantiated B.S. !

I guess this forum is just populated with a certain segment of Envoy pilots that are in the "get them here to get us out" camp and are willing to sell anything to do that. I can tell you MANY at Envoy aren't in that camp who aren't on this forum. In all honesty though, some of your criticisms of my frequent presence here are not in vain. Just yesterday, I had someone ask me why I care enough about pilots in general and Envoy pilots in particular to rebut all the B.S. being spouted here and that most of those at Envoy are proven idiots anyway, so why care ?

All I could say was I don't want others to be led down false paths and that there ARE pilots at Envoy who deserve to consider other angles then just the Pollyanna one from a half dozen or so spin masters on this forum. In that respect, guilty as charged. It's funny........Cujo665 supposedly is on multiple forums "machine gunning" posts and the Crusader easily falls into that mold here, yet they are apparently just fine. I can also guess it's really about a message you agree with, rather then the messenger when you perceive others. Sadly, that's one of the biggest weaknesses in the Envoy pilot group and it appears to be alive and well. Considering that, one can only wince at the future of such a hapless band of misguided characters.

No, there weren't.

Really. Is that you, Mason, err...

Keep your carrot (and the attached stick). We want meat.

Good point. AAG is probably hoping for RAH to go bankrupt and acquire their leases on aircraft ownership for quarters on the dollar.

He's actually correct, there is more news coming.

A structured flow agreement is far more valuable, at least to me, than some infusion of 20k in bonus greenbacks.

Absolutely wrong. I was told It was sent out as HI6 and posted on the Envoy webpage. I'm 100% sure my source is correct

Timeframe?

I can confirm this information for ya.

Any news on Envoy going westward?

OMG I was so ****ed today after hearing this news. I marched into the chief pilots office and was like *** is going on here, we have a whole gaggle of new hire pilots here who specifically came here because we were taking 17 of Envoys 700's this month. I started throwing stuff around his office. I then marched next door to the crew room and knocked over the vending machine shattering the glass. I punched two holes in the wall too. Now the crew room needs to be remodeled. In any event, they fired me this afternoon so I hope you are happy f*ckers!!!! I just can't deal with this stress anymore.