He's doing MORE then just counting HIS chickens, he's counting others phantom chickens for them that have yet to roost based on HIS theoretical chicken count. :rolleyes:

I think he missed his true calling as that of a TV Evangelist duping those who are desperate for something to believe in and someone to follow. At least there, he could likely make more $$$ than applying that effort here which has produced bupkus.

stolen and edited from EagleLounge...

August lines...

"7 zero time lines for OCE but none for OFE. Most in the mid 60s for total hours with some in the lower 70s and a few 80. However, some even in the upper 50 hour range.

No CDOs but RAP4 (by accident?).

Schedules are like watching the Chicago Cubs. Maybe next month they will improve. I remember May they were supposed to improve. Then June. Then July.

Keep up the good work Ric - you really are making this an efficient and awesome company we all love to work for. Pedro, if you want us to stop bad mouthing this place and encouraging people to come here - kick the Ric.

Oh and at least in ORD ERJ, ALL 4 day trips. No day trips. Poor senior CAs. Also I heard that again they are going to try in August to de-pair ERJ crews, FAs and cockpit. Here we go again."



Also stolen from EL

"I don't know what more they could possibly want from us?

Our contract is junk and they just violate it at will anyway. PSA has a better contract than us.

We are already the lowest paid per W2 in the industry for a jet regional due to extremely low guarantee's. If you compare them to others at equal longevity. A 10 year and a 5 year Eagle guy compared to any other regional at the equivalent longevity step, makes way less on average, for the lowest amount of days off and longest duty times on top of that.

Our hotels already suck and are in crap locations thanks to API.

We have zero ability to modify our schedules on reserve due to everything being denied for no reason.

We already have a punitive fatigue policy.

We have the lowest average days off of any jet regional in the US with the lowest associated pay credit. Not like we can work more days.

They already got PBS out of us, they chose to delay it, they could have it if they wanted.

We have to commute the day before and the day after trips because our schedules are so atrocious. Free hotels is NOT a plus here, contrary to popular belief. We Shouldn't need them in the first place.

We have the worst and longest reserve of any regional in the US. We have more pilots on reserve than any other regional, by far. We have more pilots on reserve than PDT and Trans States have total.

We have more airport standby pilots daily than any other Airline in the country.

We've closed pretty much all our bases already.

We are close to the longest upgrade of any regional in the US. I think only outdone by Endeavor right now..

We are losing more aircraft than any other US regional in history has ever lost.

We have zero career progression here. Each month is worse than the last. Each month here you get further from a good schedule, not closer.."

A month ago Cujo said "it's a good time to be an Envoy pilot", so how could this be ?

When you question his credibility and claims, you are simply declared a troll and placed on ignore. What conclusion would any reasonable person make regarding the situation there and more importantly what some of their union reps have apparently become ?

It's stunning what my old airline has become and more importantly how far its so-called union has fallen. :(

I don't know how I forgot to put it in my first post. API hotels are the worst. We stay at truck stops 45 minutes away from the airport, and they keep getting worse. But don't worry Pedro will lead us to the promise land. As soon as he learns English.

As a general rule I stay away from complaining, it's not productive. In light of that I will say that August DFW lines are 100% 4 day trips. Most are below guarantee. Most are less than 14 days off. Gone are the days of 18 day off daily, 2 day and 3 day trips in the mid 80's pay credit. I've never seen this in 14 years here at any base.

Guys, guys... Cujo told you that it will get worse BEFORE it gets better.

Huge announcement next month Ive been told.

Good Luck!

You still work for Envoy. Why don't you ask your boss.

Good Luck

Hahaha that's kind of funny.

That next BIG announcement is always just around the corner...

Sure...

Good Luck!

I for one would love to see some old mason32 quotes. Perhaps several choice ones over a six month time line.

Ya dude what did you think would happen when the aa pilot contract lost the scope language requiring the flying be done at amr eagle. You just got lucky. You enjoyed a very nice run at eagle under the protection of the 16 year contract including aa pilot scope requiring you to do their feed. I even bet you had a two year or less upgrade.

What I don't get is why your posting here and playing in your old school yard. We get it, envoy blows and many pilots got rurally hosed. You flowed and got lucky. And it's clear on the time line you sucked so bad you couldn't get hired off the street anywhere during a mega boom of the mid to late 90s. Not sure why you feel so mighty?

Sure, that was a major hit, but let's face it.......the current cadre of both line pilots and union reps can't blame the past or former pilots there for their own failures. What can you say about a union leadership that B.S.'s its own pilots about an 1113 that didn't exist or worse yet...........the 1700 saps who believed it ? I can only assume from your emotionally based erroneous assumptions YOU were one of the 1700....or maybe one of the union "leaders" ? :cool:

"I sucked so bad I couldn't get hired off the street".

Now THIS I laughed at. When you cannot refute the message, attack the messenger. You obviously know nothing about my flying abilities, qualifications or the industry during the '90's kid and so it seems all that's left to soften the painful reality of your own failures (which you've clearly learned not ONE DAMN THING FROM) is to make that baseless proclamation in regards to me. But hey, if it gets you to sleep tonight, go for it..........it's my gift to you. Unfortunately, tomorrow you'll be in the same place as tonight though and the high of that will have worn off. Gee, United has hired several Envoy pilots I know. I hear Delta, Jet Blue, Spirit and others have too and in fact, HUNDREDS of Envoy pilots have successfully moved on yet during this "mega boom", here at Envoy YOU still sit ?

Just unlucky yourself or do YOU suck too ?

As a self-proclaimed "forever fo", I have my assumptions about the answer to that question about you as well. ;)

Your post has so many false allegations I don't know where to start.....

I didn't vote yes as you describe, I wasn't a union volunteer during the times you mention, and I have job offers I'm deciding on.

The only thing you dodged with your bag of false allegations is the facts I mentioned. Go on the aa forum. Stop obsessing over the folks who didn't get as lucky as you.

False allegations ?

Your erroneous litany of my past tops the list. I must have struck a raw nerve as you sound quite emotional in both of your posts above. :cool:

Good luck with your job offers.

Don't you worry, Cujo will about face again soon. It will be all Mason all the time, until he changes his mind again.

Just know envoy lacks any human factor anymore. It wasn't like this when I started. It is now. Your just a number that's it, if your reason for missing work isn't in the contract such as your mother dies, it's a missed assignment and no one cares. Further while on reserve you will randomly on the phone with scheduling about this weeks assignment be slipped your first days rap for next week. Hope you caught it or missed assignment. Your just a part number here.

I've said the same. It's not an attack, merely an observation. I was in the industry in the 90s also. Don't act like you didn't get hired because no on was hiring. They were. You had to have networked just like today.

IIRC, you went to Eagle in the 80s so you should have had all the boxes checked. Since I'm on the far side of the world with nothing to do this morning, I thought I'd look some stuff up. Here are the hiring numbers from 1995-2000 for the big players. AWA/USA/ALA/ATA/AirTran all hired but I didn't include them.

Delta hired - 2813
AA hired - 3200
SWA hired - 1643
United hired - 4714
FedEx hired - 1474
Ups hired - 861
NWA hired - 2302
CAL hired - 972

that would be the Vietnam retirees era.

What this has to do with present Envoy pilots taking their share of the responsibility for their current situation or Cujo attempting to sell rotten meat on thus forum, I don't know. As for your "observations", they are no different then Cujo claiming AA retirements as the engine that is certain to flow all present Envoy pilots to AA in 6 years. It doesn't truly tell the story you imply it does, although emotionally I'm sure it feels satisfying.

As for your numbers above, I have no interest in wasting time validating them. However, I had no desire in flying for a freight carrier, nor spending big $$$ to get a 737 type just fo get my resume in the tall stack over at SWA. During that period, Delta hired its majority from the military and I didn't even try there. Likewise, NWA and Continental held little interest for me as I would have to commute for the rest my career and wasn't interested in that at least for them. By the time UAL called, I had my AA seniority number and made the mistake of assuming I would be at AA shortly........kinda like many Envoy pilots today, at least if you drop to your knees and pray to mason. The only two majors that held interest for me were United and American and had I persued United and if I had been hired, I would have been furloughed. Turned down a US Airways interview offer in '99 before I got my AA number as that seemed like a marginal airline and yes, I would have been furloughed there too had I persued it and succeeded. Life is what it is.

Point being, we all have different priorities and the "old" Eagle was a pretty good place to ride out the Gulf war, and the turbulent '90's living very close to your home town and driving to work for $100K plus a year. You see, back then SOME of us actually believed in making Eagle a career choice as opposed to the upgrade/flow puppy mill most there want to make it now. I find it interesting that some Envoy pilots make me out to be the boogyman due to my comments, yet consider Cujo's misrepresentations unworthy of the slightest criticism. If only present Envoy pilots could first accept their situation could they perhaps solve it or at least mitigate its present descent, but instead they cling to denial, deflection and blame of others.

I'm sorry you wasted so much time pointlessly calculating industry hiring figures from the late '90's. It proved essentially nothing about me or explaining how and why my career path turned out the way it did.

How did this go from an Envoy bashing to a d*ck measuring contest?

Man I hate to break it to you but Envoy isnt going to get 50% for 6 years.... It's just not in the contract.

The world of Envoy pilots is crazy indeed these days. :cool:

BTW, I hear Envoy is slated to get LESS flying next quarter, so that would seem to blunt any of the expansion claims made in the last few weeks. It would prove that NOTHING can be counted on in advance.

To be fair, it's all of AA reducing frequency for the fall.

"Management also let the association know that fall schedules will be very different for Envoy, AA and all AA feeders. In the past AMR would keep the schedule “flat” over fall which was great for non-rev travel, but bad for the bottom line. Aircraft would fly around with an excess of empty seats. The new AAG will be reducing block hours in the fall which will lower fleet utilization and thus will result in fewer block hours given to each airline. There will be more pilots and less flying for Envoy. The MEC is seeking pilot input on which way to direct scheduling given this news. Scheduling can build more lines of lower value resulting in fewer pilots on reserve or they can build fewer lines with higher value with more pilots on reserve. There are pros and cons to each choice."

Welcome to the new AAG.

Yes, this is obviously true. But that may present a double whammy for Envoy in that they may flow less to AA because of AA's reductions in addition to less need for Envoy to upgrade and/or hire pilots as the present overstaffing will now correct itself more slowly.

Since when is Eaglefly fair? When it was announced "Free Rainbows and Unicorns for Everyone!" Eaglefly immediately jumped on his computer, went directly to APC (not hard since its his homescreen) and posted "NO PONNIES FOR ENVOY!!!!"

I'm as big as a critic as anyone when it comes to management, but you have to let the anger go and get a life at some point. Unless you are an angry exEagle pilot who like to sue...

Wait, is that you Gavin?

LOL !

Well, when it comes to originality, I'm afraid you've got some work ahead of you. :cool:

As far as "fair", what have I said that isn't fair ? Exactly what "rainbows and unicorns" have materialized at Envoy in the last 6 months ? The only claims of those have been from Cujo and a few select others there and all I've done is provide a dissenting opinion. But, when mired in denial and smitten with deflection, I understand my criticisms of any claims of R & U is upsetting. I'm sorry if I can't embrace the empty promises being sold to you by some of your union reps.

Your right, but it's 50% till we get through the protected pilots. Which will be ~1800 pilots.

It has nothing to do with Envoy. Just like you have nothing to do with Envoy anymore but can't seem to help yourself. Apparently you are the one that takes some kind of satisfaction posting on Envoy/Eagle threads.

Is Cujo or the other cheerleaders right? Of course not. Are you right? Same answer. Pretty sure everyone can figure that out by themselves.

Why don't you just say you were a lifer? Don't make up all the other excuses about the 90s etc. There were plenty then and I still know some now. I probably flew with you at some point.

As a side note, Delta was more even than you may think.

What is it with this obsession some of you Envoy pilots have with threads involving your airline that are exclusive to those that only presently work there ? I have friends still there and so the claim I "have nothing to do with Envoy" is simply another rationalization for manipulating biased information that is being disseminated here and stifling any opinion in opposition to that.

The point of virtually all my comments was to dispute Cujo's and a few others sales tactics and that makes me wrong ? :cool:

Excuses ? Pal, if you knew anything of substance, you'd know I've been on this forum for many years and that was many years before I transferred to AA and at that point was for all intents and purposes then still a "lifer" at Eagle. In fact, I was regularly criticized and belittled as such by others when they too were unable to debate my message and resorted to attacking me personally, so I'm not hiding behind anything in that regard. I'm right here.

Sure, I even flew with at least 2 F/O's that I remember who went there during that period. I had no interest in Delta, but obviously you only see the world through your glasses and thus must consider anyone who doesn't think like or place the same values as you do to be off-course (your course). Sorry, but your assumptions are wrong, but hey, they're yours to keep, so enjoy them. ;)

Typical response of a non-thinker.

Is there anything the OP said that is remotely untrue?

Actually the protected pilot will be 50% also either by the time theyre gotten to or very shortly afterwards...

So what's the current total number of pilots after the Protected pilots? DOH after 10/11/2011?

A few hundred at most. They go at 35%. I looked it up not long ago and posted it in another Envoy thread. By the time they go the annual AA retirements are through the roof. 35% of much greater hiring would still be similar to the 50% of current new hires.

The new seniority list is on the Envoy ALPA website if anybody wants to go count.

There are actually 2 post protected-pilot group. One is for after 10/11/11 to pre-DOS of the December TA. Then post-DOS December TA.

So soon we can say "How does this effect the post-protected-pilot-group-pre-DOS-flow?