Don't come to envoy
 

Enough of the "what's happening lately" we need to tell potential new hires, or potential lateral movers why it is so bad here. I've been here over 5 years and it has gotten worse day by day.

1. Min days off
2. Line values at 72, reserves can potentially make more.
3. Continuous lies from management
4. No real growth, only temporarily adding block hours while others can catch up on hiring.
5. Reserves are being punished illegally for the companies unwillingness to negotiate.
6. A flat out lie of time to upgrade and flow.


Many more and worse reasons, please continue thread so that the above can see what it's like here.

...it's simple, same answer i gave the workers at walmart protesting about their jobs - QUIT !!! No one to blame but yourself for the "miserable" situation you're in now, simply end the relationship and do something else that will make you "enjoy your life"


have a good day!

Maybe you can get a job at PSA

In the process

That's the answer of a crappy boss.

Great advice! Envoy deserves to be shut down, but it should be done on the pilots' terms, not those of the so-called management

Real classy. Is that what you aspire to after Mesa?

You can always join the firstclass rate of pilots listed below.

Good God man! Why on earth have you stayed?

Never, he's ridding the GV into the ground like he did the Envoy cash cow he was on.

Literally - he flys that GV of his into closed airports and brags about it. Kinda like a certain PSA DB we know.

I really picture RJ Pilot as the Howard from Big Bang Theory. He wont know that reference but many will.

4th post by OP just to bash ENY? Nice.

He's not wrong about many things, but good luck seeking help for that hole he just put in his own foot.

The rest of the "quick upgrade" places are hitting the wall. Parking aircraft due to staffing. Jump ship if you feel like lengthy training delays and being the guy that got hired at the tail end of the quick upgrade rush that wound up with the 4-5 year upgrade. Same for those street-captain types. Already many of them have been flying since the beginning of the year and have less than 100h in the left seat. Yeah, raking in that PIC at the bottom of the list while getting passed up by FO's upgrading.

I think it's ENY's turn next. Bottom of the list here will see the fastest movement when the 175's start showing up. Performance by some of the contractors has been poor enough that it is rumored that some of the flying is going to be shifted back in-house.

Currently we are allegedly overstaffed. This problem is exacerbated because the company has an idiotic policy of making all reserve pilots fly a minimum number of hours every month, so that means they will deliberately withhold flying that could be used for lines in order make the reserves fly. And - they break up the reserve flying in such a manner that it's a DH to a ferry to a DH back to base. Next day a leg to an outstation, a DH back. Every single day a reserve pilot is wasted on a few legs, a single overnight, the reserve list zeros out and when things go wrong there's nobody available to cover the flights. This makes reserve life miserable because of our overseer's draconian reserve rules and inability to have a life due to min days off for virtually everyone. The other issue is that the overstaffing may be caused by the company wishing to avoid furlough, if they furlough it kicks up the flow to 30/month (which they can't honor because AA can't take that many. Go figure, the company making promises they can't keep), and can you imagine the fallout if we furloughed at a time like this? It's difficult enough to get people here, nobody'd touch this place with a ten foot pole. They'd never get those furloughed pilots back because they're all typed and have great training, they'd be snapped up by every other regional out there in a heartbeat. That's a lotta $$$ to throw away. The possible upshot to the overstaffing is that the company may be holding on to everyone to compensate for the expected rapid upward movement once the flow kicks up a notch (30/mo required when the first 175 shows up) so they have a buffer and don't wind up understaffed as people move up.

Circular problem: The company treats everyone like s hit so they want to leave even to airlines with worse prospects and rules, so ENY is losing staffing they need for the future; but ENY possibly needs the staffing overage to cover people expected to leave to AA and other airlines with upcoming expected upgrades and flow, but the policies implemented to deal with the overage are causing people to leave.

TL;DR: Overage needed to cover expected upgrade and flow when the 175's get here. However, company workarounds to deal with overage make life miserable. Light at the end of the tunnel is that the overage may be to cover the expected upward movement upon 175 arrival, so those at the bottom of the list/hired soon will see the fastest upward movement soon. Don't base your decision on the negative Nancy's bi tchi ng about ENY.

Ok, first Jerry's sidekick. Not leaving for a lateral move.
Two, all the stuff you said should make someone want to run more then I even said.
Finally, no matter what envoy does they will not attract enough pilots. Most new hires have decided on their own that what is offered at envoy is no worth the treatment we get.

As far as a "negative Nancy" nope, just someone with enough self respect not to let a company treat him like crap. As to many at envoy do.

Think about it, with all the stuff envoy offers new hires, they still can't attract pilots.

Legit question here:

Why is Envoy hiring pilots if they are so over staffed? What am I missing here?

They can't keep up with attrition. Right now fat(so they say) come end of yr. Very short..

Because we are losing more pilots that what we hire. As the flow keep going, we still shrinking gradually. Also if we are "over staffed", means that we can get back some more flying.

Rumor is that AA will acquire some of the RAH175 planes because of their situation, specially in MIA. I think once envoy get the 175 program running, things might change.

Real answer: I don't know.

Possibilities:

They need to put a front up that they are hiring. Not hiring opens up a can of worms and negative thought processes among the employees that would likely increase attrition, something they may not want due to the potential reasons I mentioned above.

They are hiring to help cover attrition among FO's. Our FO's have left in droves since things have gone south. FO's with the least time vested leave because they have the least to lose and the most potential gain by going elsewhere. The company needs to prop these numbers up a bit, again, due to the previously mentioned possibilities. It's certainly not done altruistically to move people up on reserve.

Frankly it all hinges on, and points to, expected rapid upward movement in the near future. Otherwise, things are not sustainable the way they are operating now. They cannot carry the overage. The pilots will not stand for the continued abuse and leave as fast as they can. Right now, the only thing keeping people is the possible fart-in-the-wind promise that things are supposed to get moving soon. The company is wasting an absurd amount of money paying 35% of the pilots 75 hours to be on reserve while only giving them 20-30 hours actual flying, paying for those benefits, and not getting a return on the investment. By all rights they should have furloughed, there are too many pilots and there's not enough flying.

Either they're inept and got their MBA's in a Happy Meal, or there's a reason for keeping everyone here. Hopefully it's a good reason, and not just treating everyone like a s s and keeping the staffing up to cover attrition.

Okay, But if they're giving away all these planes to PDT and PSA without something to replace them with....
How would they be short then?

Only 175 flows next year, not 30 a month. 30 a month is predicated on classes of 60 at AA.

You're obviously hinting at something here.

Don't come to envoy
 

I think I mentioned that the company is most likely not going to be able to honor 30/month.

Edit: Said a different way: 30/month is probably BS, they're not going to do it and they know it.

And where does this 175 number come from?

Roughly 350 mandatory retirements next year

If I understand correctly, the flow at Envoy is 30/month or 50%, whichever is less. If AA planned to hire 60+ in one month, Envoy would flow a maximum of 30. If AA planned to hire 40 in one month, Envoy would flow a maximum of 20 pilots. Is this basically all correct? Also, anyone know if AA is done recalling furloughed pilots?

So people feel that there's only going to be 1:1 hire:retiree ratio? Is this based on anything factual or did someone just pull this out of their *** and now it's gospel?

Most have been retiring before mandatory retirement so far. They based their 175 estimate off projected mandatory retirements at AA next year (it's around 350). It could be more, but if they did that... Everybody would just be saying they're spinning it to make it look better and that they should only estimate based on hard known mandatory retirements.

So, it seems people will gripe regardless which way they do it.
We have guys in the 824 who will carry over company time rather than be a plain new hire like all our protected pilots, and they still complain about stuff all the time. It's like giving somebody a gold bar, and them complaining because they didn't get two.

We've sent over 500 to AA since 2013 now. That's more than the entire pilot group at PDT. Hate them all you want. Their flow is working pretty much how they said it would.

That said, I'd send people to PDT rather than here until they fix our horrible working conditions.

Why do you keep flip flopping? One week Envoy is the place to be, another week not so much.

Look, we all know you're new to the industry and like to troll; but try and keep up.

Until they fix the QOL issues nobody is recommending this place.

Ok, so it's AA that is saying they will hire only to replace retirements? Is this official from the top floor? Does fuehrer Rik have a valid reason to use this number? He can't have a 2.5 and 6 flow based on these numbers. Or the number is wrong and AA will take more. He can't say that only 175 will flow and make some wild guess about attrition outside that number to make his dream magically come true.

Well, I guess he could...but nobody'd believe him.

They haven't got a clue what they're doing, do they?

Who cares? Git while the gittin's good. Works great! Ric couldn't predict the flow rate of a turd down a toilet.

You've gone way out of your way to try and attract new hires over the last two months. Now you are not recommending Envoy? What are you supposed to tell new hires that took your advice and came to Envoy based on your expert fantasy conclusions, that it was all bullsh*t?

70ish% of ALL newhires at AA from now on are from ENY, PDT and PSA. ENY and PDT being the fastest. Both have their drawbacks but still either one is a good move right now.

Except you. Look, within the last month or so for weeks if not months prior to that on multiple forums and social media sites, you've been trumpeting Envoy as THE regional to be at for new hires and the QOL issues are FAR older then that. When people then question you on your obvious blatent misrepresentations, you just proclaim them "trolls" as if that somehow validates your biases and justifies your claims.

I think MANY here are "keeping up" just fine, it's just that you dislike them passing you in the credibiity department. :cool:

He's a troll. Facts are lost on him. You are correct with your post. Our QOL has deteriorated to where nobody can currently recommend this place.

That can change in less than a month if they want, and we are currently in negotiations.

II would STRONGLY caution you and everyone else on this forum NOT to consider Cujo to be any kind of expert on AA retirements, AA hiring or Enovy flow or the relationship between them and its applicability for flow from Envoy. Every word he parrots here is simply the opinion of himself and carries zero more weight then the kid who scoops ice cream at the nearest Baskin-Robbins.

Who knows, ask Ric
nope, just their estimate of 175
Who knows

In that order

He could probably say that it got much worse. You know people get more information as time moves forward and they do this thing called "revising previous statements" based on new information. Heck, I bet you do it in your everyday life, but you don't have a troll pointing it out to you trying to make himself look better.

No one has sold more B.S. On this forum than Cujo/Mason. He "revises" things like Hilary Clinton. Envoy pilots get what they pay for with reps like that. Always have, always will.

These clowns can't even hear what they're saying, can they? 2.5 upgrade and 6 to flow but only 175 flows in the following year? Both these scenarios from the same individual?

My brain is unable to process the contradictory nature of the opposing expectations and accept them as true. Should one condition exist, the other outcome is not feasible, yet both conditions and outcomes are simultaneously expected to be true.


HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT, OVERSEER?

AA Mandatory Retirements
Year, American Airlines, US Airways, Combined Yearly Total
2015 112 173 285
2016 135 206 341
2017 190 234 424
2018 300 262 562
2019 418 274 692
2020 535 261 796
2021 580 250 830
Subtotal by 2021 2270 1660 3930
2022 647 223 870
2023 704 299 1003
2024 717 239 956

Total During ENY CBA 4338 2421 6759

Half of 3,930 in 2021 is 1,965 which is about 115 more than are on our list that will opt to flow over. That is under 6 years.

I don't like the way they treat our pilots currently any more than the next guy; but if you want to attack them, and I hope you continue to do so; then pick a fight that your argument is suported by the data, not one where the data supports their claims.

Their treatment of our pilots is currently a serious problem, and they need to fix it swiftly.

This is the problem with salesmen like Cujo; They represent and cling to selective data to support their goals. Sure, based strictly on those numbers, it is theoretically possible for all present Envoy pilots to flow to AA. However, it is misguided assumption to believe that the number of retirements at AA translates to an equal number of Envoy pilots flowing to AA. Similar representations were made years ago with Letter 3 and they never panned out, but since Cujo was nowhere to be found on Eagle (Envoy) property then and CLEARLY is no student of history, it's easy for him to cherry pick selective claims by others and imply they are certainties and thus as a result of that, "it's a good time to be an Envoy pilot". The poor treatment of Envoy pilots has been going on for many months, if not years, yet just weeks ago, Cujo was blowing his "hear ye, hear ye, all come to Envoy horn".

Parker is already deferring deliveries and talking capacity reduction (which have gutted Envoy's chances of exercising most of their E-175 options, virtually ALL of which captains seats on the 40 aircraft they will get (200 captains) will be claimed by lifers with years to go before retirement). PBS at AA will require up to 15% less pilots to fly the same block hours (up to 2000 pilots, but probably less), up to a couple of hundred of the almost 1000 furloughees will likely accept recall (still a small percentage), all of which will dramatically slow the flow stream. Likely consolidation of regionals has strong potential to dilute the present Envoy flow due to inclusion of another carriers pilots in any merger/acquisition/consolidation scenario and that's just AA specific issues. Any number of geopolitical or economic outside factors could force stagnation or contraction of legacy carriers at any time and is one variable that is now overdue in this historically cyclical industry.

Yes, just take the flip-flop chameleons claims at face value and don't scratch the vaneer to see how strong it is. It's ironic that he has such a philosophy in that it is the exact foundation of why Envoy pilots have allowed themselves to be led down so many primrose paths over the decades. You'd think succeeding generations would learn form the past, but in fact, they not only ignore it, they mock it. The future here seems all but certain considering the parade of present Envoy pilots which is akin to the marching band in Animal House that is led up a dead end alley by the biggest moron of all the characters in the film with Cujo as the baton twirler in the front of the band.

He's been a notoriously well known flip-flop chameleon able to change his colors as his background changes all in the hope it continues to feed his ego-driven compulsion to be seen as a yoda-esqe source of industry and Envoy/AA wisdom. Most recently, he implies it is HE that is the source of what he calls the regionals new foundation and that is "staffing is the new currency". All one has to do is go back 12 months or so and remember his Mason days as yet another color of the chameleon. Anyone who wants to join this marching band down their apparently present primrose path is certainly free to do so, but again, unless you have tangible positive reasons for considering Envoy (which seem few right now), waiting awhile to see just what becomes of this apparent developing black hole would be my recommendation.

Don't come to envoy
 

On the contrary. The 6 to flow and 2.5 numerology is still fair game. While it is possible that it could happen (and quantum theory says I could exist in two places at once), it isn't happening right now. Releasing that seems to have the intent of implying that ENY is the place to come because this movement is happening now, or at least in very short order.

It isn't.

And according to the numbers he himself uses for next year's flow it won't be possible for anyone on the property, only the new hire in 2017.

That's like making a headline, "CURE FOR CANCER FOUND!" but failing to point out that it won't be available until the year 2050. Maybe it's real, but stupid and useless to anyone dealing with the issue presently.

He's counting his chickens. It's baiting.

Agreed about the treatment of everyone here.