Skywest vs. envoy
 

Hello all and happy holidays, so I'll lay it out as clear as I can

I have 1200+ hrs and have been interviewing with a few regionals

I landed an offer with envoy pending 1500 hrs (all other requirements are met)

I have been in contact with others including Skywest who I have in interview with in December

I will be commuting from California( not moving for now)

So here my question, what do you guys think about either company for present and future. I see it more simply as this
30$ an hour at Sky west compared to 24 @ envoy

Sky west has a 2 month reserve
Envoy is 2/5 years

Sky west is non Union and no flow
Envoy does

Please chime in thanks!

Do you prefer chocolate cake or vanilla?

Skywest has several CA bases. Youre quality of life will be dramatically better if you live in base. Why commute 3+ hours to sit reserve for a few years? To me its a no brainer.

Because of the FLOW bro.

Which ever is sweeter lol

Deff Envoy then.

I'm with you on that one, I do not want to sit in a room and twiddle my thumbs for a few years, how ever I wonder if it's worth the suck to flow up, also is it a realistic timeline to sit reserve for a few years then FO for a few more and then CA until it's my turn to go? Or go with a faster upgrade and apply down the road

The amount of suck wont be worth it. Flow is a marketing tool and should never be the main reason you choose an airline. Its not a nice backup but choosing to go to one purely for a flow is incredibly foolish. Chances are you will get hired at a major well before AA calls your name.

See that's what my thoughts are, I mean even if I never take the horse blinders off and only try for one legacy I think I'd get there faster with Skywest in this situation, thanks

While SkyWest (to me) would be the more attractive of the two given you already live on the West Coast, I would honestly look elsewhere. I think with all the retirements in the next 5 years at mainline, you will want to go somewhere and upgrade as soon as possible to make yourself as attractive as possible to get one of those jobs. You don't want to be 8 to 10 years out catching the backside of the mainline hiring wave. I have friends who have been there for 4-5 years and haven't upgraded. Same at Envoy. Now I know that current upgrade times aren't always a good indicator of what upgrade time will be like in a year or two, but that's still a whole lot of people above you who will upgrade before you do. And I'm not saying that an AAG wholly owned is a bad choice right now (far from it actually). You will basically eliminate American from your list of potential airlines you want to work for by not going to an AAG wholly-owned. But choose carefully and don't sip the kool-aid from anyone. There are positives and negative to each of the wholly-owneds (and all airlines in general for that matter). Good luck in your choice.

I would go Compass. LAX most junior base.

Great advice. I agree.

Go someplace that has flow and a quick upgrade.
Why limit yourself to those two?

You have some good points, and I understand I will be at the bottom of the list for a long time also now are your friends trying to upgrade within or off to a major/legacy or are they happy with the seat they are in, I don't want to be offensive but I don't know how else to word that

And if not envoy or SW, where else?

These are the only two I have really looked into, I've been in contact with compass and republic

Republic wants to interview after the new year(no date set) and compass wants me to be closer to 1500 before I come in

I have a friend at compass and loves it do far so that's an option

I'd say Skywest is a no brainer. The best qol is to have a line and live in base. Skywest is hiring 100 people a month for the foreseeable future. To me that says an extremely quick line and a fast upgrade. But I would definitely check out more regionals before you choose. Good luck!

I have worked for both. Out of LAX to... Go figure. I would go to SkyWest.. They are about to expand big time on the west coast.. (Delta E175's and UA/AS 175's..) Eagle was a good company not knocking them. But way to much change ahead for them..

Over the last 2 years skywest has been hiring like crazy you are behind the huge wave.

Other things to consider:

Even though new hires aren't sitting reserve for very long, at some point you will upgrade and you will sit for years on reserve as a Captain. SkyWest reserve is a unique kind of hell that has no real description. On reserve at SkyWest, you will be treated on a sub human scale. Of all the people that I've run into that left SkyWest for a total different career left because of the way they were treated by SkyWest on reserve. If you come here consider yourself warned.

Training failures, have been mounting and are climbing higher, as a percetage. There has been a total turn over of training department management and there is little room for issues. Many new ground and sim instructors that have zilch experience. Lots of new LCA's again with little experience. Until you have finished your IOE your CP cannot help you, you are at the mercy of some new training department micro manager that is out to make a name for themselves.

If I was in your position, flow would have a lot of weight in my decision.

The upgrade at SkyWest is at least 3 years and things could change over night and come to a grinding halt.

There is no way I could bunk up with another person for 2 months, SkyWest only offers rooms with 2 guys in them, nice way to start your "first class career"!

I'm senior SkyWest, I would go Compass, Envoy, Republic in that order.

Flow is irrelevant, in 5 years regionals may not even exist because of the vacuum that will be created due to mainline retirements.

Wow really? He lives in CA. I wouldn't consider anyone but Skywest or Compass. There are a lot of Compass guys saying Skywest now that things have slowed down.

Flows are a joke. Republic is a complete mess. Skywest training is not that difficult. Yes there are failures, but mostly because they are hiring anyone who walks in the door. I have gone through both CRJ and ERJ training. Both are great programs.

I have been at Skywest about 18 months. I have moved up 500 numbers and have over 1000 below me. We seem to be the only company taking on more flying while everyone else is struggling to keep what they have.

I think Compass is your best option. My humble opinion


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I think it's a little disingenuous to say that flows are a joke... I would argue with you that it is yet to be seen if flow-up programs that many wholly-owned airlines have in place will work long-term. But at the current metrics, if you don't work for PSA, PDT, or Envoy, you can kiss working for AA goodbye. That leaves UA and Delta. And Delta statistically hires more ex-mil than almost any other.

That being said, I do not know that any of the above mentioned airlines would be a good fit for the OP unless he wants to endure a hellish commute to an east coast base. I don't think Envoy is a terrible choice, I just don't think the movement they are advertising will happen the way they say it will, so go in with both eyes open if that is what the OP chooses.

The quick upgrade has ended at Compass from what I understand, and I don't really know anyone there to ask. SkyWest I've heard is a good airline to work for, but movement is still slow and the OP would be at the back of the big hiring wave. I wouldn't go to Mesa either. Low pay and hiring wave ending there as well.

I think whoever said Republic as an option is delusional. RAH (again, in my opinion) would be a gamble right now at best. It is widely known that they apparently can't afford the new contract's pay scale long term and there have been rumors that mainline isn't willing to renegotiate. I think RAH will go through a restructuring (read: bankruptcy) period to shed its 50 seat flying and to renegotiate. Lots of turmoil there and a relatively stagnant seniority list.

If I lived in California, I'd probably fly for SkyWest. They are a big company and will likely be able to weather the coming storm the next few years will bring. It's kind of a bummer for west coast pilots, not nearly as many opportunities as on the east coast.

That's the kind of answer I'm looking for, someone from the inside that is aware of what it is to be a pilot at those companies

Thank you

Skywest is the only real option in the regionals.

Envoy will view you as a piece of meat and not as a person. Skywest will treat you with respect.

Flows are designed to keep those who are senior and about to leave in their current position at the regional an extra year or 2. Flows are a way to pay people without it costing any money. Flows have been around for 30 years and usually end before the actual flow occurs. In 1987 there was the Pan Am Express flow that ended when it was sold to TWA. A few guys flowed but they all could have gone to a major at the time anyway.

How long did the eagle guys sit before they flowed?

I would steer clear of any regional besides Skywest. I expect most future contracts to go to Skywest. Delta, United, American, and Alaska all seem to be sending their flying there and very little anywhere else right now.

AA loses over 2000 pilots in the next 5 years alone. Retirements increase dramatically after that. If you think all or even the majority of the replacements will come from the wholly-owneds, then you have a poor understanding of statistics. This all assumes they can keep hiring, which they can't. Same goes for Delta. They have the luxury of being pretty picky for now. In 5 years they will be hiring whoever they can get their hands on.

I wouldn't call that an accurate description from the majority at Skywest.

Ok wel then can you please add to the discussion what you think would be more accurate? Thanks

Problem is that you won't know if you made the right choice until 5 years after you make it. With the regional game, since you don't own the flying it can get shifted at anytime. Compass is nice since all their west coast flying is junior, but that could get taken away or shifted back east and then you would be commuting.

I have never worked for anyone but SW, but to say they treat you with respect seems a little off to me. Spend any amount of time on reserve and you will never feel like you are treated with one ounce of respect. I think back in the day things were different, but now you are just a number and there is no respect between pilots and crew scheduling. Again, I think all regionals are the same but management here does not respect pilots.

That being said, I wouldn't recommend Republic to anyone. BB is an idiot and banking everything on the 1,500 hour rule will get repealed or changed. I don't see that happening and I don't see them doing anything to make that place worth going to. SW is getting a lot of flying and I know a ton of CA's that have offers or class dates. I see tons of movement here in the future.

Nailed it!
Add up the above and B.Rs abrupt departure to a corner office over at UAL. As well as the 41 year CEO announcing his handing over the reigns to the chimpmeister means the winds are shifting. What direction? Who knows, but now that the major consolidation is in the books, no one knows what the regional side is doing, until it happens.
The absolute best choice is to do whatever gets you through the regional morass as fast as possible. It's like swimming with electric eels, it's not,if you get shocked, it's when.

See my response to his post. I think most are happy here. All those I know who jumped ship from other airlines say Skywest is leaps and bounds better than where they came from. There is no way I would commute with no chance of being home-based. Where in CA do you live?

Skywest training is easy. Extremely watered down, you only have to know basics. Our failures have increased... from about 1percent of new hires to 5 percent (better than average industry wide). That is due in part because we have lowered our hiring standards.

In the time I've been here I've moved up right around 500 spots every year. skywest is upgrading 37 pilots every month for the foreseeable future. We are hiring 100 a month. Those numbers are suppose to increase in 2016 with all the new planes.

Movement? Check
Good company culture? Check
Decent pay? Check.

And for this guy he lives in a Skywest base... why wouldn't he go with them?

From what I gather it seems like as a reservist are sitting so long that they will be passed up when it finally is time to open the flood gates, it's not about how much time you have per say but how that time is acquired, and also the process and way that you get that time, thanks for your input

Got it thanks, I'm near LA

I would definitely narrow your search to Compass and Skywest. Commuting to reserve is a special kind of hell. LAX is Compass' junior base I believe and likely attainable at Skywest a few months after training. Nobody is going to give a damn about flows in a few years.

I'd second that recommendation.

I do not believe in all this my regional is better than your regional rhetoric. Both seem to be good options.

Don't get sucked in by long-term promises. The entire industry is a giant pyramid scheme. Everyone is dreaming of becoming the super senior 787 capatin who only works 3 days a month but very few people will get there.

I'd pick whoever you are comfortable with now and you think you are comfortable with if you get "stuck" there for more than a couple of years. You'd be surprised how many lifers are at regionals - and almost none of them joined with the intention of becoming a lifer.

As for flows, I can easily see those backfire in a couple of years. If hiring at the majors really picks up as everyone expects it to there will be a real incentive for AA to reduce flow from the regionals. Why canabalize your regional pilot pool if you can hire of the street from "competitors"?

Flows serve one purpose only - lock-in. Once you put in 3, 4 or 5 years you will think twice to jump ship or rather hang on for that coveted flow. If pilots truly become a rare commodity it won't matter anyway.

This^^^

The industry is changing so fast that no one knows what is going to happen in the next year. Barring another economic or terrorist event, it should be a great next few years for pilots looking to move beyond the regional industry.

As for flows, they aren't a good reason in and of themselves to go to an airline. They do provide some continuous movement as guys off the top leave, generating upgrade opportunities for those less senior. But I wouldn't come to a regional based solely on that. The fact is that anyone coming to one of the AAG wholly-owneds is looking at 6-10 years to flow. And so much will change between now and then, who knows if the flows will even still exist.

And reserve everywhere is its own special kind of hell. Don't be fooled. I wouldn't say it's necessarily any better at regional A over regional B and personal experiences being on reserve can differ greatly. Guys in my class have had to sit hot reserve almost 30 or so days now. I've only had it twice in a year. And I was used a lot in reserve so for me, reserve wasn't that bad. Ask the guy who has had at least one hot reserve each reserve period and he would probably tell you different. Bottom line, reserve sucks. Go somewhere where you don't have to sit reserve for long.

Compass has a LAX base with E175s for Delta, but Skywest is bringing E175s to LAX for Delta. Something has to give... Compass already announced the transfer of one E175 from LAX to SEA, so who knows what will happen to Compass in LAX. Everything can change so fast.

I think regardless of what happens to them on the DL side, they'll still have a presence in LA since to my understanding all of their AA birds are based there. Again however, who knows what'll end up happening. Trying to predict the future in this industry is a losing battle. :rolleyes: