Originally Posted by RyanP (Post 2092918)

Here is the facts posted in the picture below. New hire numbers with new 15K bonus addition and DFW E175 classes availabe yet to be determined when that was put out. Supposedly much more interest now for the 175 classes but I don't know for sure. Pilots that have flowed from Eagle before the 824 are not included in this count.

Flows never work?
Worked for these 492 guys the past couple years and people are in class again this month. Yes, it took the current flows forever at Eagle since American didn't hire since what, 2001?. OBVIOUSLY that slowed down everyone's career progression out of here. People see those guys have 16 years seniority and freak out or other idiots try to scare people off by saying it will take new hires 16 years as well since that is what it is for the guys currently. That is the past and applies if you were here during 9/11, AA furloughing, flowbacks, Age 65, bankruptcy etc etc. That stagnation doesn't apply to a new hire that wasn't here yet. Things are moving rapidly now since hiring at AA resumed. Hiring at AA is not going to stop anytime soon unless the whole industry tanks again. In which case we are all screwed anyway.

Other people like to trash the flow and say it will never work to try and justify their decisions to leave, hoping it doesn't work out to make themselves feel better about leaving, or others constantly posting negative predictions about it don't even work here at all and desperately want the new hires to go to their regional instead to fuel their quick upgrade mills. Eaglefly is a special case, which is odd for someone who flowed to AA from here, his main goal on this forum for the past year is just to try and make Envoy not get any new hires at all. For some twisted reason he gets a kick out of it. But whatever, Envoy may suck, nobody is saying it isn't a craphole regional, pretty sure none of us have said this is some amazing place to work. It isn't. (But we are supposedly management salesman:rolleyes:). We just work here. It's a regional and it sucks. It's not what it use to be. All the rest of the regionals suck as well, name one that doesn't! This whole regional industry sucks and needs to go away, but the flow here IS working just fine. The REAL numbers below show that.
Attachment 2749

Originally Posted by squib (Post 2092944)

Mass exodus to where? A lateral move to the next greatest regional?

Mainline is pulling their flying back in. It's evident. Don't chase flow carrots that aren't going to exist in 5-8 years. Do the math, a pilot hired tomorrow at any regional with a flow will not see their number called until at least 5 years from now, minimum. That's if the flow agreements still even exist then. Anyone with any time in this industry knows that 5 years is nearly an eternity.

Originally Posted by squib (Post 2092944)

Don't chase flow carrots that aren't going to exist in 5-8 years. Do the math, a pilot hired tomorrow at any regional with a flow will not see their number called until at least 5 years from now, minimum. That's if the flow agreements still even exist then. Anyone with any time in this industry knows that 5 years is nearly an eternity.

Originally Posted by ag386 (Post 2092757)

There are a few cheerleading Envoy pilots here that constantly are in sales mode on the threads relating to Envoy. They are always defending management's actions and looking only at management projections and memos to the pilot group to "sell" their product. They desperately need to sell this product because they need all the new hires they can get. Why? So that they can flow someday in the future. They are desperate to believe that what management has offered is indeed true. Just like those before them, when management's statements of "You'll be at AA in 5 years" came true.......15 years later, they are saying "this time is different." Below you'll see numbers on why this time is different, but for different reasons you will not likely see this flow continue unabated as management has stated.

It's no secret that Envoy, like almost every other regional, is having trouble getting new hires. New hire numbers have averaged between 7 and 10 per month in the first quarter of 2016.

Envoy has around 1850 pilots today. Management originally wanted an Envoy pilot group of around 1600 but that's rapidly changing and you may be near the "floor" management wants right now with their "revised" plans. Why? Because other regionals are having trouble bringing in the bodies to do the work as well. So, after spending the past four years trying to run off as many pilots as possible, management has FINALLY realized that yes, we do in fact need pilots to fly our planes. Especially since AAG has tasked them with more flying due to the other aforementioned regionals inability to get the job done. This is probably the only reason that the light bulb went off.

Now, Envoy truly is beginning to feel the squeeze or find themselves in a pickle if you will. The new hires aren't there and that is the problem.

Envoy has arguably been severely overstaffed the past year. That has quickly turned and Envoy is nearing this new "floor" of pilots on the revised flying plans that management has now. Since it appears that Envoy MAY be staffed properly today, it can be said that as the flow continues over the next few months along with present attrition, Envoy will very soon find themselves in a critical staffing situation.

Hiring 5 to 10 pilots per month isn't going to replace 40 leaving every month. As the seriously pro Envoy Patrol here is so quick to point out. "Do the math."

There will be some reprieve as Letter T pilots make their final decision over the next 6 weeks. Envoy flow will likely be on hold through the summer with only attrition taking pilots off the list. This MAY get Envoy through the summer but I predict Critical Coverage and possibly some vacations being cancelled just to meet the AAG flying schedule they will demand.

Flow could resume as early as September. With the reduced fall flying schedule and picking up 40-50 new pilots from now through the end of summer, Envoy will likely be able to allow classes of 30 to flow for a few months without causing too much of a disruption. This will take them near the end of the 824, which in my opinion, is where the game changes.

Late this year I predict Envoy will find themselves in a situation in which they cannot afford to lose a single pilot. The question is, what do you think will happen at that time? Do you think management will continue to honor this flow and suffer the consequences of idle CRJ700's, E145's and E175's? Or, do you think that they will put an emergency halt to the flow due to operational necessity?

Has Eagle/Envoy management ever violated an agreement with the pilot group in the past? Do you think that this flow agreement is a "sacred cow" that will not be touched? Many on here will say that they cannot as it will halt recruiting completely as that is the carrot drawing the recruits in. If it is, it certainly isn't attracting the hordes to Envoy at present.

My opinion is that Envoy will absolutely not hesitate to halt the flow and deal with the consequences in some other way. I can see them going to the union and hashing out some kind of deal bringing up pay for all Envoy pilots to some reasonable level. But they will not continue the flow in its present form. This new agreement may include an aggregate percentage between PDT/PSA/ENY that will flow as a whole and it will certainly not be 50% of AA new hire classes.

If you are a pilot and looking to a regional, I would strongly ask you to consider the above scenario before signing on the dotted line.

Originally Posted by cr700 (Post 2093093)

It's time to call this post what it is. Total BS. Number one, this guy doesn't even work here. He has an axe to grind with Envoy for whatever reason. The fact is, he's probably upset that he isn't at Envoy so that he can take advantage of the flow. Are you upset that you left Envoy for Allegiant ag? Realizing now that it was a mistake?

Listen people, we just posted a vacancy for 87 Captain spots. We are getting two of our E-145's back from Expressjet and you can look for even more of that in the near future. There are big plans in the works for the E-175 program. As many of you are aware, Republic is having trouble meeting their flight schedule. You'll see some shifting going on soon that will favor Envoy.

All of this will require more pilots and more Captains. As those Captains flow to AA at the rate of 30 per month, guess what? The upgrade time is going to drop exponentially. That 2.5 year upgrade you keep hearing about. It's for real. The flow? Look at 5.5 years now. It was described very accurately in another post titled How Envoy's 5.5 Year Flow Works.

Some people just can't take it that Envoy is doing so well. As said before, management is positioning Envoy to be the premiere regional carrier in the U.S. We are far and away the best in terms of what we offer already to prospective new hires. Let me ask you. Is Endeavor offering a 5.5 year no interview flow to Delta? No. They have to interview and even then, their time at Endeavor is much, much longer than 5 years. And our contract blows theirs away by a long shot. And this is the next closest thing to Envoy in terms of what a regional carrier offers.

Envoy has already flowed almost 500 people to AA in the past couple of years. The flow works people. AAG did this to attract the new hires and to position Envoy for success. If you are here bad mouthing Envoy I say, get over it. Envoy is doing extremely well and will continue to do so. I would guess that others at lesser carriers are jealous of the flow program we have since no one else has it.

Originally Posted by iFlyRC (Post 2092969)

Whats bizarre to me is that you all want to go to American, an airline to this day that still treats the TWA people like un-wanted step children, and with US Airways, lets not even go there!

Originally Posted by Sliceback (Post 2093102)

Why? Retirements. A better job. And they read new hire after new hire report completely different impressions of working at AA vs your post.

Originally Posted by Eaglepilot84 (Post 2092910)

Per the MEC newsblast and updated thru 3/15/2016 the new hires YTD is 40. So I stand corrected that the average for this year is 16 per month. I expect that to increase now that RAH has declared bk and with the new-hire bonus programs being offered. Could I be wrong? Sure, it's just an educated guess. But at least my estimates have facts behind them rather then the emotional ones you put forth due to your bitterness towards envoy. How's Allegiant kiddo?

Originally Posted by chignutsak (Post 2093111)

You can spout all the fricken numbers you want. There are NOT enough pilots coming in the door. Period. At some point, the shrink needs to stop, does it not?

Originally Posted by FlameNSky (Post 2092987)

This is great advice because as soon as you accept a job at envoy you HAVE to wait for the flow. You are not allowed to apply, interview or accept a job elsewhere. You MUST stay at envoy to flow no matter what. You must stay. You are a very smart fella.

Originally Posted by cr700 (Post 2093093)

It's time to call this post what it is. Total BS. Number one, this guy doesn't even work here. He has an axe to grind with Envoy for whatever reason. The fact is, he's probably upset that he isn't at Envoy so that he can take advantage of the flow. Are you upset that you left Envoy for Allegiant ag? Realizing now that it was a mistake?

Listen people, we just posted a vacancy for 87 Captain spots. We are getting two of our E-145's back from Expressjet and you can look for even more of that in the near future. There are big plans in the works for the E-175 program. As many of you are aware, Republic is having trouble meeting their flight schedule. You'll see some shifting going on soon that will favor Envoy.

All of this will require more pilots and more Captains. As those Captains flow to AA at the rate of 30 per month, guess what? The upgrade time is going to drop exponentially. That 2.5 year upgrade you keep hearing about. It's for real. The flow? Look at 5.5 years now. It was described very accurately in another post titled How Envoy's 5.5 Year Flow Works.

Some people just can't take it that Envoy is doing so well. As said before, management is positioning Envoy to be the premiere regional carrier in the U.S. We are far and away the best in terms of what we offer already to prospective new hires. Let me ask you. Is Endeavor offering a 5.5 year no interview flow to Delta? No. They have to interview and even then, their time at Endeavor is much, much longer than 5 years. And our contract blows theirs away by a long shot. And this is the next closest thing to Envoy in terms of what a regional carrier offers.

Envoy has already flowed almost 500 people to AA in the past couple of years. The flow works people. AAG did this to attract the new hires and to position Envoy for success. If you are here bad mouthing Envoy I say, get over it. Envoy is doing extremely well and will continue to do so. I would guess that others at lesser carriers are jealous of the flow program we have since no one else has it.

Originally Posted by Sliceback (Post 2093135)

Is that somewhere in writing? At the WAI conference the question of getting hired OTS vs having to wait for the flow was asked and the AA HR rep said OTS was still available to flow pilots. A recently as Feb 2016 that was true.

Originally Posted by cr700 (Post 2093093)

It's time to call this post what it is. Total BS. Number one, this guy doesn't even work here. He has an axe to grind with Envoy for whatever reason. The fact is, he's probably upset that he isn't at Envoy so that he can take advantage of the flow. Are you upset that you left Envoy for Allegiant ag? Realizing now that it was a mistake?



Listen people, we just posted a vacancy for 87 Captain spots. We are getting two of our E-145's back from Expressjet and you can look for even more of that in the near future. There are big plans in the works for the E-175 program. As many of you are aware, Republic is having trouble meeting their flight schedule. You'll see some shifting going on soon that will favor Envoy.



All of this will require more pilots and more Captains. As those Captains flow to AA at the rate of 30 per month, guess what? The upgrade time is going to drop exponentially. That 2.5 year upgrade you keep hearing about. It's for real. The flow? Look at 5.5 years now. It was described very accurately in another post titled How Envoy's 5.5 Year Flow Works.



Some people just can't take it that Envoy is doing so well. As said before, management is positioning Envoy to be the premiere regional carrier in the U.S. We are far and away the best in terms of what we offer already to prospective new hires. Let me ask you. Is Endeavor offering a 5.5 year no interview flow to Delta? No. They have to interview and even then, their time at Endeavor is much, much longer than 5 years. And our contract blows theirs away by a long shot. And this is the next closest thing to Envoy in terms of what a regional carrier offers.



Envoy has already flowed almost 500 people to AA in the past couple of years. The flow works people. AAG did this to attract the new hires and to position Envoy for success. If you are here bad mouthing Envoy I say, get over it. Envoy is doing extremely well and will continue to do so. I would guess that others at lesser carriers are jealous of the flow program we have since no one else has it.

Originally Posted by citxls (Post 2093139)

Wow dude, I wish they served me the same Kool-Aid you're drinking when I was at Envoy. I've seen Doug Parker, and upper management at their absolute worst and know what they are capable of.

Best advice is go to Envoy if you live in base and don't want to commute. Get some 121 time and have the flow as a plan D.

Originally Posted by highflyer1980 (Post 2093165)

What if I told you pilots don't hate the flow? They just don't trust you.

STOP CONTRACT VIOLATIONS!!!!

Originally Posted by cf105 (Post 2093182)

Year 1: $26
Year 2: $35
Year 3: $38
Year 4: $40

Just sayin'. People can't just keep living on their credit cards and spend the following 10 years paying them back.

change the above and this kind of useless pro & con partisan thread won't be needed.

Originally Posted by cf105 (Post 2093182)

Year 1: $26
Year 2: $35
Year 3: $38
Year 4: $40

Just sayin'. People can't just keep living on their credit cards and spend the following 10 years paying them back.

change the above and this kind of useless pro & con partisan thread won't be needed.

Originally Posted by cf105 (Post 2093182)

Year 1: $26
Year 2: $35
Year 3: $38
Year 4: $40

Just sayin'. People can't just keep living on their credit cards and spend the following 10 years paying them back.

change the above and this kind of useless pro & con partisan thread won't be needed.

Originally Posted by RyanP (Post 2093287)

Anyone with access should watch the videos posted on Jetnet, My.Envoy or whatever at the Charlotte town Hall with Parker.

They made it clear in the videos that if the bonus amounts weren't enough to get it done with new hires they would come up with something better. Parker said they will not let the airline suffer because they can't get enough pilots, and they aren't changing the flow numbers. They think the new bonus plan will help, just has been a couple weeks, not long enough to see if it has worked yet. If it's not working, then they will continue to adjust to get more pilots.

Originally Posted by Varsity (Post 2812148)

Looks like no flow selections for April.

At all.

So much for ‘guaranteed’ :rolleyes:

Meanwhile more pilots hired off the street ahead of Envoy pilots. Hundreds of them.

Originally Posted by Shiner (Post 2092810)

A lot of y'all are looking at this backwards. If Envoy can't staff, that means each pilot they have becomes more valuable. It also means they will be more likely to increase compensation and ease work rules to hang on to everyone they've got.

Head on over to the Mesa thread where current pilots are telling newhires to stay away, so they can get a better contract. Less newhires = more leverage for current pilots, not less.

Also, if the contractual flow is violated, Envoy attrition will probably spike and they would lose more than the 25/month that were flowing.

You guys can't sit here and say, "flow is a carrot, and guys are only staying for the flow." Then turn around and say that the company will shut off the flow and every one will just sit here and wait for it to start again. If they shut it down, many senior FO's down to new FO's will see this as sign of what's to come and bail very quickly.

All that said, I don't have a crystal ball. You guys with your solid predictions and guarantees are fun to read, but the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. One thing is for sure, it'll be interesting times we're heading into.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Varsity (Post 2812148)

Looks like no flow selections for April.

At all.

So much for ‘guaranteed’ :rolleyes:

Meanwhile more pilots hired off the street ahead of Envoy pilots. Hundreds of them.

Originally Posted by cr700 (Post 2093093)

It's time to call this post what it is. Total BS. Number one, this guy doesn't even work here. He has an axe to grind with Envoy for whatever reason. The fact is, he's probably upset that he isn't at Envoy so that he can take advantage of the flow. Are you upset that you left Envoy for Allegiant ag? Realizing now that it was a mistake?

Listen people, we just posted a vacancy for 87 Captain spots. We are getting two of our E-145's back from Expressjet and you can look for even more of that in the near future. There are big plans in the works for the E-175 program. As many of you are aware, Republic is having trouble meeting their flight schedule. You'll see some shifting going on soon that will favor Envoy.

All of this will require more pilots and more Captains. As those Captains flow to AA at the rate of 30 per month, guess what? The upgrade time is going to drop exponentially. That 2.5 year upgrade you keep hearing about. It's for real. The flow? Look at 5.5 years now. It was described very accurately in another post titled How Envoy's 5.5 Year Flow Works.

Some people just can't take it that Envoy is doing so well. As said before, management is positioning Envoy to be the premiere regional carrier in the U.S. We are far and away the best in terms of what we offer already to prospective new hires. Let me ask you. Is Endeavor offering a 5.5 year no interview flow to Delta? No. They have to interview and even then, their time at Endeavor is much, much longer than 5 years. And our contract blows theirs away by a long shot. And this is the next closest thing to Envoy in terms of what a regional carrier offers.

Envoy has already flowed almost 500 people to AA in the past couple of years. The flow works people. AAG did this to attract the new hires and to position Envoy for success. If you are here bad mouthing Envoy I say, get over it. Envoy is doing extremely well and will continue to do so. I would guess that others at lesser carriers are jealous of the flow program we have since no one else has it.

Originally Posted by cr700 (Post 2093093)

It's time to call this post what it is. Total BS. Number one, this guy doesn't even work here. He has an axe to grind with Envoy for whatever reason. The fact is, he's probably upset that he isn't at Envoy so that he can take advantage of the flow. Are you upset that you left Envoy for Allegiant ag? Realizing now that it was a mistake?



Listen people, we just posted a vacancy for 87 Captain spots. We are getting two of our E-145's back from Expressjet and you can look for even more of that in the near future. There are big plans in the works for the E-175 program. As many of you are aware, Republic is having trouble meeting their flight schedule. You'll see some shifting going on soon that will favor Envoy.



All of this will require more pilots and more Captains. As those Captains flow to AA at the rate of 30 per month, guess what? The upgrade time is going to drop exponentially. That 2.5 year upgrade you keep hearing about. It's for real. The flow? Look at 5.5 years now. It was described very accurately in another post titled How Envoy's 5.5 Year Flow Works.



Some people just can't take it that Envoy is doing so well. As said before, management is positioning Envoy to be the premiere regional carrier in the U.S. We are far and away the best in terms of what we offer already to prospective new hires. Let me ask you. Is Endeavor offering a 5.5 year no interview flow to Delta? No. They have to interview and even then, their time at Endeavor is much, much longer than 5 years. And our contract blows theirs away by a long shot. And this is the next closest thing to Envoy in terms of what a regional carrier offers.



Envoy has already flowed almost 500 people to AA in the past couple of years. The flow works people. AAG did this to attract the new hires and to position Envoy for success. If you are here bad mouthing Envoy I say, get over it. Envoy is doing extremely well and will continue to do so. I would guess that others at lesser carriers are jealous of the flow program we have since no one else has it.

Originally Posted by cr700 (Post 2093093)

As many of you are aware, Republic is having trouble meeting their flight schedule. You'll see some shifting going on soon that will favor Envoy.

Originally Posted by NoValueAviator (Post 2812739)

Republic is rapidly taking over NY, as any NY Republic pilot is quick to tell you, here or at LaGuardia lol

Why that surprises anyone baffles me, Envoy’s 40-50 seat operation has always been the last choice, picking up the leftovers.

Certainly until recently we were carving off some Republic flying in MIA (ostensibly that Republic didn’t want). I dunno if that’s still happening.

Originally Posted by Varsity (Post 2816417)

Republic: taking envoys flying and pilots since 2016.

Originally Posted by buddies8 (Post 2816451)

Let envoy pilots dream. Why are they complaining. They got bonuses to the point a new hire making close to 100k and they have flow. Why should they care if republic takes flying away from envoy, they're flowing. So what if republic crews make a lot more than envoy pilots, who cares they have flow. So what if envoy schedules stink and republic is better and so with qol, envoy has flow.
You new what you were getting into as a new hire at envoy, if you did not then you were an idiot, it was on all the forums.
You folks failed to understand one simple thing, that pilot recruiter works for management and for management needs not the pilots best interest.
SKW has tripled its aa feed, mesa being given help by aa, PDT and envoy flying transferred to non w/o.
Your pay and qol stinks as compared to others, so what you whining about, YOU HAVE FLOW.