Envoy Withholds CA Upgrades
 

They'll never let you upgrade from E175 FO to CA...

May 19, 2016

Fellow Envoy Pilots,

It is with significant frustration that we write you, yet again, to discuss more unfavorable news.

The Company released flow plan 1605 on Wednesday May 18, 2016. Within the document was exciting news for many senior First Officers regarding their long awaited upgrade class, but for twelve of our current E175 First Officers, the news was dour. The Company has decided to withhold these dozen pilots from upgrade training due to management’s self-inflicted staffing difficulties.

Summertime is the busiest time of the year for airlines. The MEC has done everything in its power to avert this avoidable withholding, as well as warn the Company that without serious action, harm would come to this pilot group when that unpredictable travel season arrives.

That time has come. While Section 15 authorizes withholding and provides that the affected First Officers will earn Captain pay for the entire time that they are considered “withheld” (commencing the earlier of the posted effective date for the vacancy or the date a junior pilot assumes the status), they will not receive the withholding pay until they have completed training themselves. The precedent and resultant harm to the morale of this pilot group will be long lasting.

The MEC’s hope was to pro-actively avert this situation through constructive and collaborative progress towards long-term contractual improvements. We highlight, yet again, that without new hires Captain Wilson’s projected 2.5-year upgrade and 5.5-year flow will never materialize. Moreover, without a contract, airline, and operation that attracts and retains pilots in sufficient quantity, the entire airline’s future is in jeopardy. Envoy management has doubted our warnings about staffing and training concerns, and has resisted us at the bargaining table as we try to secure the future of our carrier in this competitive job market.

We are doing everything possible to convince management that its continued reliance on old ways of thinking and handling of Labor’s concerns is doing far more harm to recruitment and retention than any amount of consternation on social media.


In the Tuesday May 17, 2016 “Today@Envoy”, Mr. Kenji Hashimoto gave kudos to the hardworking E175 team.





"Congratulations Team Envoy on reaching yet another outstanding E175 milestone!" said Kenji Hashimoto, American's Senior Vice President, American Eagle. "It means a lot to American that we can rely on Envoy to safely and reliably provide a great travel experience for our customers. Keep up the great work!"



What Kenji said is laudable and true. However, the withheld First Officers have each given nearly a decade of service to Envoy. We need to remember that without these senior pilots paving the way as part of the initial cadre, the E175 program would not be off to the successful start it is currently enjoying. It is a demonstrated fact that forward thinking airline managements attract qualified new hire pilots with contractual advancements, career opportunity, varied base locations, and more positive Labor/Company relationships. On the other hand, a management team repels qualified pilot applicants when they create conditions that are perceived as an impediment to career advancement.

The Association will continue to offer proposals that will improve our staffing model and ability to perform more of AAG’s flying. We look forward to achieving meaningful improvements that enhance Envoy’s competitiveness.

Fraternally,

Your Envoy MEC

Sucks.. I feel for u guys... We need to unite the envoy.. Pdt and psa pilot groups together.. End the whipsaw and get a common contract between the three of us.

End the whipsaw? Ha! We tried that once before. But now that some PSA and PDT pilots "got theirs" we're supposed to join forces. Yeah, no.

Sounds good until PSA undermines y'all yet again...

That sucks. At least that first full paycheck would be huge. Assuming you ever did finish upgrade training.

Even as Mesa when they were withholding 175 upgrades, the FOs were getting the captain pay. Wrong seat, right pay.

I wouldn't recommend any of the AAG wholly owneds. They all suck in their own way.

Damn, that sucks, 8 years waiting...such bull$h**. Once again, pilots paying for management's negligence.

Wait so the mec claims the upgrade/flow calculations are unrealistic.....yet there are still people here claiming they are legit


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Mesa pulled the same thing last year.

False. Mesa's contract contains the same caveats in regards to holdback pay.

If it makes you guys feel any better, ASA side of XJT has voluntary CA displacements lol. Also, we are upgrading 8/month but delaying training up to 75 days after the 60 day effective date.....so almost 6 months from award...but on the plus side, you get CA pay after the 60 days..so 2.5 months of Senior FO w/CA pay. (which will be year 9-10 pay haha), and 150% open time pickup, vacation buyback and pickup over "removed for OE" trips (paid protected)...It's possible to make 130-160 credit hours @ ~$80/hour.... $$10k-12k/month$$

https://cdn1.lockerdome.com/uploads/...782314d5_large

If I happen to see this particular thread title drifting lower on the first page I may occasionally bump the thread just to be sure that all potential newbs see how our airline treats its own.

Another dick move from a wholly owned management team. Sorry to hear this for those FOs. Hopefully somewhere down the line you guys are rewarded for being treated this way. Best of luck to you all.

At least you guys are upgrading more than 4 people every 2-3 months...

Interesting that the company spin doctors have run for the hills with all the recent bad envoy news. Heat in the kitchen!

Well, don't count them out just yet. Probably experimenting with new recipes before they unveil a delicious new board of fare in the hope of attracting a new wave of diners. ;)

Interesting how the envoy hate club comes out of the woodwork over 12 (That is one tenth of one percent of all envoy pilots) FOs that will continue to get the FO Retention Bonuses which puts them pretty close to RSV CA pay anyway, while getting to enjoy senior bidding and will get a HUGE payout after they finish upgrade training. They do miss out on 121 PIC but that is meaningless in the current HR hiring culture. I would take that deal in a heart beat!

Don't get me wrong. I think management are stupid for withholding the guys, but the wheels are far from falling off. Perhaps you can crawl back under your rock until things actually do get bad.

The long awaited new recipe ?

I dunno, in reading EL and talking to some pilots there face-to-face, I have concluded things ARE bad. Your version of "bad" must be complete chaos. IMO, barring a successful hail mary, I think you might have to concede this point within 12 months.

Uuuhhhhhmmm?

$2500 every 3 months doesn't get you close to CA RSV pay.

Wowza...I am sorry to hear that, fellow Envoyians. Keep your heads up high and keep plowing along.

When I upgraded from a senior good schedule, OT flying FO to a 75 HR RSV Captain, my monthly income went up about $1,000 a month. $833 a month is pretty damn close.

Yea. Flying OT. Also, I bet when you were an FO the schedules were a bit different than today.

Not everyone is/was an OT *****....

envoy still blows.... Times never change from 1997.

OK, so anyone who flies OT is an OT Wh re... gotcha. I fly with a lot of wh res then

Well when you're trying to say an FO makes the same as a captain.

Don't be so obtuse.

How is 12/1825 .1%? You are about 650% off in your math. I am still waiting for my huge payout after being withheld for 6 months while watching junior guys log pic. By the way my last year as an FO I made 45,200 and my first year as a CA I made 84,500. There is a huge difference for someone who doesn't pick up ot.

Management/Labor relations have never been good at Eagle/Envoy, but they have been increasingly toxic lately.

But trickydic and our MEC chairman are scheduled for long term together. What could possibly go wrong? Also, if training is so backed up on the 175 why are we wasting training on two guys who never fly. I don't even think Sam finished CRJ IOE.

Sam's a "team player" and wants to get to AA ASAP too. Not sure what that math tells you, but I know what it tells me. :cool:

you do not need a e175 rating to get more money being there is none or to get to aa faster, so why is sam and short dicky going to training?

management here just wants aag to know that they can be more of *** holes than anyone else.

That's acute.

Lot's of management bashing, and to someone new to the industry it seems justified, but yet to make sense to me is what, exactly, the MEC brings to the party. Honest question: What does it add? Seems there's lots of 'negotiating' with management but to read these posts it sounds like the MEC bends over on every issue.

Skyvector...care to comment?

You're not doing it right. Properly bid transitions are worth 8 - 10 hours of pay alone. I would consistently make 95 - 105 hours of pay a month for 80-90 of work, 14-15 days off a month. Admittedly, that was pre117.

I'm on pace for 60k not including the 10k bonus as an FO on 5th year pay

Well some would say our current MEC has become to cozy with management.

Some? We all should be. Sam sit under Dics desk and unzipped on command

Yes. Current MEC is way too cozy. The good part is that there are some in the MEC who are resisting.

How does this impact the flow?