I'm sorry, when was it used on a bid result? Oh wait, it wasn't, thanks to our MEC and the PWG.

Kudos to the MEC for standing strong given some of the their other stances on things. But I believe the point he was getting at was that management was pushing the envelope/boundaries. It's just a matter of time before they get it.

Not exactly, I expect significant gains in terms of compensation and improvements to our work rules over OUR current contract. Gains over our existing rules with higher pay would be good enough for me.

The XJet people seem to have unrealistic expectations for ASA.

Everybody wants things to get better when they negotiate new contracts. I don't think their expectations are unrealistic if we, as a pilot group, can increase efficiencies and cost savings initiatives. We would effectively create the revenue for our better QOL and pay, just like Southwest does every day. It's possible for everything to be better, but we have to BE better, not just have a better contract.

I don't really see anything more we as a pilot group can do to increase efficiencies...we're pretty much already doing it. Firing a bunch of redundant, useless middle manager types over in the headquarters building would be a good start toward saving money...but that's above our pay-grade.

Our performance has a lot less to do with the way we operate the airplanes and more to do with: the ramp (which sucks), gate agents(which suck), crew utilization (which sucks), maintenance (which sucks) and catering/cleaning/servicing (which mostly sucks).

I often feel like Delta is purposefully sabotaging our performance...

Because the company I work for already has an unsustainable business model based on how much it costs them vs. how much their customer(s) compensate them.

ASA is losing money.

Yah, they can cut costs elsewhere in the operation to bring costs in line with earnings...but there's only so much more expensive the labor can get before it becomes too expensive for the business model to work.

I expect a raise. I expect this next contract to be more expensive than the last.

I simply recognize that there are limits.

Yes, this is the first time I've gone through this. No, I'm not young or aspiring.

I don't see our pay as being that far off...I want modest pay increases and substantial improvements to work rules. I'll vote for a contract that raises my pay and incentivizes the company to use crews more efficiently and jerk us around less and tightens up some of the scheduling/PBS language.

'burning it down' sounds like something my 4 year old does at bed time.

I agree. US Air had unionized ramp workers that were making over $60k a year to toss bags. With each contract negotiation they would up their pay and benefits. Eventually US Air's cost of doing business exceeded what the market would support and they went bankrupt. The bag handlers were forced to train their sub-contracted replacements right before they were fired. If you "burn the place down" you only hurt yourself.

The company (New ASA) is over twice as big as it was this time last year. The Holding Company (Skywest, Inc.) is the most profitable in the industry. They can afford to give us raises that don't even keep up with inflation going back to 2004. Economies of scale. There is a reason they went after XJT not once, but twice. They will make money.

Somehow ASA guys think asking for reasonable contract gains is "Burning it Down." You guys have played the "miser" angle for so long, you forgot what it looks like to act like a normal pilot group.:cool:

Yep, pretty much.

But I gotta ask a question of SOME of our Atlanta headquartered brothers. Did those few forget, or flat out not pay attention that management ALREADY screwed themselves when this whole ASA-XJT thing went through? The point about them saving 70-80 million dollars in "synergies" when the deal is done due to the elimination of redundancies as well as savings from the economy of scale created with the "super regional"

In other words, if they want to use the fear grenade of "hey pilots, we can't remain cost competitive and need to keep our costs in line otherwise we'll lose flying" blah blah blah simply isn't a valid stance.

There are things we can do to increase efficiency, although it is true that it has to include the ramp, the gates, management, scheduling, etc..., but we can realize those cost savings and the resultant pay raise. The cost of doing business does have to go down, but by working smart, not by taking advantage of the labor groups.

I gotta ask: Are you qualified and trained to read and calculate a companies profitability? Are you a CPA or do you have an MBA?

I am not, and I hear people all the time talking about the companies books like they DO know what they are talking about. Take the latest round of paycuts XJT took - we had 'chicken littles' running around saying the sky is gonna fall when all they were doing was feeding off of fear propaganda.

I fly an airplane from point A to B as safe as I can. THAT is my job. I do not run marketing, planning, scheduling, hedge fuel, etc. - and I plan on raising the bar on this next contract - both in terms of pay and work rules. If you are looking for extra cash for this company then look elsewhere because you are not gonna get it from me.

That sucks for them, however I am NOT A F(CKING RAMPER!!!! I am a very intregal part of this company. I didn't take a week long course on how to stack bags in a bin. It took years and a lot of time, effort and money to do what I do!

And no I'm not a hat wearer or an egomaniac who needs to be called Captain by everyone. I'm just sick of seeing and hearing people diminish the pilot group as "just another work group". We are the engine that runs this airline, not some schmuck who filled out an application at the airport. Get some damn pride and sack up!!

We, unfortunately, have a lot of guys who are not ready to bite and draw blood.

Over the next three to five years a great deal of movement is going to occur within our industry. We (speaking for those of us who do not want to make a regional a career destination) need to bite, and bite hard. The time is now to recoup the lost time with families, the furloughs, to poor reserve utilization, poor pairing / line construction, the ridiculous behavior of management over the past three years - in the form of significant contract improvements FOR those of us who will likely remain on property (so long as the company exists) over the next two to five years...and even for those who will fill our shoes when we finally can escape this place.

So...no point having a good attack dog if it won't draw blood.

Passive negotiations get you nothing of substance.

Contact your status reps, voice your concerns, attend LEC and MEC Public meetings. Reach out to your volunteers working on YOUR behalf on the ASA and XJT JNC. Call them up, send them an e-mail. Do far more than complaining and challenging an ASA or XJT pilots' opinion on this very forum. Become active.

In the end, we all need to remember that we will be one pilot group - one labor group - doing the work provided to us by our management team. Who will we stand next to when the time is necessary? Each other. One group, one contract. This is still peace time, but if we don't collectively start thinking with a tactical mindset, we all will pay the price.

Another guy that "gets it". And believe me, the guy you quoted "gets it" as well.

good post man!

I think there are enough asa people feeling like the XJT pilot group to have a majority. The way Asa has been treated over the past few months is the way XJT has been treated for going on two years. We are tired, we know crew costs are not going to bankrupt our company, and we have been wading through managements poor decisions long enough. Any Pbs system that management is hoping to RAM down our throats is not going to end well.

So people who work around airplanes but don't fly them are "schmucks"??? nice attitude..... Both our companies would probably be better off if we had our own rampers but that has gone to the cheapest bidder with the exception of hubs. As far as being integral....look at SW....Quality rampers= ability to turn aircraft fast. I am amazed at the way some pilots treat people who work around the plane, it disgusts me. Sure there are slackers but there are in every job and every seat, that doesn't mean they are "schmucks". 5+ years ramp work for 2 large airlines so I have been on the end of "oh.....you're just a ramper"

Currently a part of the 9E, XJ, Colgan marriage...Let me tell you guys, IT'S A BLAST! You gotta try this!

Ha! Me too. Can't wait to see someone else do this BS!!

Well, mission accomplished with PBS........for Mgt

The WORST schedule I EVER had with line bidding was crappy 4 days over the weekend.

Now, I have 2 five days, a three day and a SIX DAY!! Before anyone chimes in that we don't have five or six day trips, your right. Two days were tacked on before my three and four day trips. Some of the 3 days are blocked at a whopping 8 hours. LOTS of sitting around in hotels, away from home.

The union and pilot group are so drunk with koolade they just say "you should learn how to bid" Well, there are a lot of us with these 5 and 6 day trips on our schedule.

Net result is that I have 4 less days off than i would under line bidding

Congratulations to Brad Holt, he played our pilot group like a fiddle. The senior guys get what they want, and many guys on reserve get a line, so they are awesome PBS salespeople. The reserve guys are like dogs beaten for a couple of years. They are soooooo happy to get a bone it's like winning the lottery.

Us in the middle not so much.

Mgt WILL turn the screws much worse on PBS once it is voted in on property. Vote NO!!!!

Well, and somer knows this, but it only takes a few of us to filter a new attitude.

Ask more from your elected representatives, ask more from your volunteers...and if you feel comfortable enough, seek out some opportunities to help the pilot group yourselves. I can't speak for XJT, but I know we at ASA are going to need every able body person to help us achieve whatever contract goals our JNC is going after...

The fight isn't within our pilot groups, it's with those who don't respect labor and the services we provide. Don't be fooled by these BBQ's and One Team slogans.

But hey - Thanks gents. :)

I have the utmost respect for rampers, agents, cleaners, etc.....However do NOT stick me in that category as far as importance to an airline operation. We are more important than that. Why some people can't see that is beyond me. Don't like it? Go to the local airport and get a discovery flight. Then Solo, Private ticket.............on and on until you can fly this airplane for the company.

I've been called a "poor silly soul" by former management for wanting to do my job AND get paid properly for it, yet management has no problems bringing in and paying "top talent to retain their services".

A popular phrase comes to mind: "This would be a great airline if it weren't for the pilots!"

I am sure you are not happy with your schedule. BUT you can not speak for everyone. I (and alot of FO's i know) have BETTER schedules now than with line bidding. I am around 50% on the -200 (FO). I have straight 4 days...weekends off...14 days off..and 92 hours of credit. I agree with you though...there seems to be too many loopholes in the system. We def need to clean those up on the next contract. And its been said before....i believe alot of the problems have to do with the pairing construction. PBS has nothing to do with pairings and the variety of them that are created.

Just my two cents. There are two sides to every coin....

Is that directed at me or just a general statement because I already fly for us.... :D YES RRR just started....

don't you worry about transfer of flying?

I think past events have proven that management will get what they want irregardless of a scope clause or any form of agreement. We have protections in ASA's contract and in the Transfer and Process Agreement with XJT but it would probably take a crafty lawyer a couple of hours to figure out the loop holes in either. The threat of a whipshaw is definitely alive and well and the leverage to secure air tight language isn't there.

skw is currently flying in IAH replacing xjt crews and xjt is flying in ord replacing skw crews.... in my opinion it is a hint of things to come.