ASA / Expressjet merge pilot groups?
 

Any insight on whether the two pilot groups will be merged? Is there a guarantee the merge will take place or just a promise from management? After all, Skywest and ASA never merged, but then Skywest is non-union (whereas ASA & Express are both ALPA).

Also, I hear there might be a 'fence' put up between the two pilot groups. Any idea how long that fence will be in place if the two ever do merge?

They will be merged. It was decided awhile ago. They are negotiating a JCBA right now.

if you get to work for us, you'll learn really fast that they don't tell the pilot group anything until it's after the fact.

The expressjet pilot group shot that down months ago.

Can't shoot it down. skywest pilots must first vote for alpa. You can't force a workgroup to unionize.. So we wait...

The xjt union could have done it but they shot it down. Waiting for skywest to unionize could take years.

Oh really? That's news to me.

...and you apparently have no clue what you are talking about. We can't shoot something down that was never even proposed to us.

Let me ask you a question. Why would the XJT pilot group NOT want all three lists to be merged? So we can have a nice whipsaw party? Yeah....sign me up for that! I don't know of one single XJT pilot out there that wants two separate lists.

JCBA?

Any ideas on how the 'fence' works?

Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement.

...and no "fences" have been brought up yet....although I'm sure they will be. A "fence" would prevent an ATL CRJ-700 Captain (ASA) from bidding and displacing an EMB-145 Captain (XJT) in EWR....and vice versa.

You have no idea what you're talking about. :rolleyes:.

Just talked to our chief pilot and was told their will be no fences, just one giant bid as early as October.

That's hilarious! No such integration can happen until we have ratified a new contract. I wouldn't expect that to happen for at least 3 years...probably longer.

This is exactly what the negotiating team said during the alpa lunch during recurrent. 3 years at best........

May be I should have bought a Bose headset instead of a Telex. :eek:

3 years until a new contract? As in 3 years until the lists are merged? Wow that sux. That's longer than it took DAL/NWA with over 12000 pilots involved.

Per the laws, there has to be a JCBA before an SLI.

I'm hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst. If its going to be three years, that's just longer we get to work under our current CBA until we have a crappy/substandard one rammed down our throat.

It's because of the nature of the three-way hate fest:
- ASA pilots generally want QOL improvements and a reasonable pay increase. Most of the ASA guys I know understand that remaining competitive means growth and job security and don't want to break the company's bank with demands.
- Most of the XJet pilots I have talked to have exactly the opposite attitude and think that they're working under a 'concessionary' contract and that they can't possibly gain enough of a pay increase to make their job worth it.
- Management relies on very inept mid-level managers who need an unrealistic amount of scheduling/duty flexibility in order to pull off the monthly schedule at all...nevermind doing so efficiently or cost effective.

The mix of those elements is going to make it practically impossible for everyone to agree on anything. I anticipate a mediated solution.

This merger was SO not a good idea...love to have been a fly on the wall when the cultural differences between the labor groups (and how those problems would be addressed) were discussed. That'd be good for a laugh.

What do you mean "think they are working under a concessionary contract?"

We ARE working under a concessionary contract, there is NO thinking we are what so ever.

Maybe you missed the part where XJT Pilots voted for the current concessionary pay scale to keep the company afloat 2 years ago? The current pay rates are not from Contract 2004...XJT and ASA pilots will be of like mind eventually, we just wonder how many times ASA guys need to get burned drinking the Kool-Aid before they clue-in.

Maybe you also missed basic business classes, because this merger wouldn't be happening (After being proposed TWICE) if SKW Inc didn't expect to make a killing on the deal by outsizing the competition, with Economies of Scale more than offsetting any increase in Pilot compensation.

I don't think 3 years is accurate. Last I heard, directly from the committee, late fall, like someone else mentioned (October) was given as a completion time for the JCBA.

Remember, it's voted on. If they present us with a turd, vote appropriately.

I'm not gonna speak for a whole group, but anything less than what we have now is a turd. If they wanna give us that, whatever. But I think it's safe to say that the XJT group (largest) isn't in the mood to take ANOTHER concession in any way shape or form.

Of course, management, as well as the MECs will use the standard scare tactics to try and get it through on the first go. Some of them have already started.

How do you guys think a vote would work? With express jet having a larger group I would think that each pilot group would vote on it and if it passed both groups then it would be approved.

Could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the vote goes out to ALL pilots, not two separate groups of pilots.

Just looked through the TPA, and the way I read it, both MECs have to approve the JCBA individually, then a simple majority of the combined pilot group.

I keep hearing that tossed around, how XJT outnumbers ASA. And they do. But do numbers matter when something goes to mediation?

Read the post above yours. I just talked to my rep, maybe yours will tell you something different. There is NO pilot group A vote vs. pilot group B vote, hence NO mediation. At least for JCBA purposes.

Maybe SOC will be complete by the fall, like that stupid colorful brochure I got in the mail says it will. But I think that a JCBA, SLI, and a MOAB in the fall is a tad optimistic.

Sorry, I got in a hurry and oversimplified and used too few words. Yes, it's a concessionary contract.

The pre-concessionary ideal, however, simply isn't sustainable under ASA's business model. Apparently, it wasn't sustainable under XJet's business model either, which is why there had to be concessions in the first place.

My point is that since 66% of the labor group is stubbornly seems determined to hold out for an unrealistic, unsustainable ideal from '04, this isn't going anywhere fast and will likely wind up in mediation. In mediation, none of us will get as good a deal as we could negotiate for ourselves.

As previously mentioned, the scare tactics have already taken place;

Nope, it's been beat to death. The reason that XJT had to take concessions was because CAL decided to squeeze the crap out of them. With Jerry's help. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there something about 80+ million dollars saved by the "synergies" of the two companies? Well, was that planned on a concession level that management somehow already foresaw?

Sorry brother, but taking ANOTHER concession is unrealistic. If XJT had to inherit the ASA CBA, it's be a concession. I've read them both side by side. Sorry, one is better than the other. And I'll extend you the SAME offer I have to other ASA pilots that's don't seem to want to take it. I'll compare the scheduling, reserve, compensation, sick rate accrual, and retirement provisions head to head if you want for comparison purposes. I'll tell you right now, there's only 3 things in the ASA CBA concerning the above that are better than the XJT CBA. But I don't think a single XJT pilot would be willing to give up ANYTHING for those 3.

Unless the XJT CBA at a MINIMUM stays intact work rules wise, but with pay raises, it's a concession, PERIOD.

Thank you. First thing I read that makes sense.

I get that. I've looked at the portions of the Xjet contract that are analogous to the ASA contract that most concern me (scheduling, compensation, reserve). It's (even in it's present state) a better contract.

I just don't see how it's possible, in 2012, to negotiate a contract as good as the one you could get pre-bankruptcy in 2004.

That's not a realistic goal...it's a different world.

And that doesn't even speak to how different the flying we do (for DAL) is compared to your relationship with Continental.

I don't blame you for wanting what you want...hey, go for it. I just don't think it's reasonable in this climate and will be ****ed if your holding out for it keeps ME from getting a contract and moving forward.

Like I said, the deal we get handed to us from mediation is going to be worse than what you refuse to settle for. It always is.

The XJT contract now is better than 04 as far as workrules go. There have been numerous LOA's/MOU's that have made it better. The ONLY thing worse is the pay.

Tell me how different it is? The 2008 CPA that CAL (with Jerry's help) squeezed XJT into is cost neutral. Is ASA's current deal with DAL cost neutral, or is there a profit?

What makes you think there is going to mediation anyways?

On a personal note, I've been through FOUR pay concessions, and in EVERY case it didn't make a damn bit of difference. Management seemed to screw it up every time. How many you been through where you can speak from experience that a concession is going to help you?

I'm glad I get to see this from the outside. I have a feeling this is going to be long and nasty and that is just the jcba, it'll be even worse with the sli.

That pretty much sums up why it will take us forever to get a crappy arbitrated contract.

I dont think this will go to arbitration. If the MEC's pass the TA on to the pilot group for a vote the ASA pilots and a small group of xjt pilots could very easily ram this thing down our throats. If they give us a TA that is similar or slightly under what xjt has now i am betting most ASA guys would see it as as a yes vote and it would only take a small portion of the xjt pilot group (even though we are bigger) to pass it. Which is why I dont think our MEC is sending anything to the pilots until it improves on our current contract.

The scare tactics of "we need to this to remain competitive" are incredibly tired. Considering the amount of waste that goes on at all levels of the company (most notably scheduling) is a much larger waste of resources. Giving pilots an extra $1 or $2 an hour with a half respectable retirement account is not going to be the difference between insolvency and profitability. a reduction in the millions of dollars in bonuses and stock they give to upper level management can quickly fill in any hole created by a new contract.

By merging the companies they have said they are gaining 30-40 million a year in savings which doesn't include the bulk discounts on spare parts. If they want us to have PBS they are making the pilot group more efficient which saves them money while drastically reducing our QOL. They cannot cry poor!

Scare tactics and boo hoo sob stories about people wanting a fast upgrade or more airplanes is exactly what management wants. They have the money!

Agreed......

What are you talking about... you have no idea what you're talking about.