Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner. In order for a physician to state you are unable to perform flying duties they must be a flight surgeon. An FAA flight examiner only qualifies the doctor to certify if you meet the medical QUALIFICATIONS required by the FAA. They may not certified or trained to provide a medical diagnosis of your ability to actually perform your flight duties. That is why as pilots we self certify that we are physically able to perform our required flight duties.

The military flight docs go and fly in the aircraft and familiarize themselves with the aircraft and missions the pilots they treat operate. That way they are better able to evaluate the ability to perform the mission. The flight docs in the military or those civilian flight docs providing flight surgeon service to government agencies cannot be sued for their aerospace fit to fly diagnosis. Unless it's changed, a civilian doctor cannot get regular malpractice insurance to cover aerospace medicine beyond the basics of FAA flight examination. As a result no civilian doc should ever give you a fly or no fly diagnosis, unless they are very specifically trained including completing a residency in aerospace medicine and were previously board certified as aerospace surgeon. (the vast majority of military flight docs did not complete an aerospace medicine residency)

This is a very, very small group of possible physicians that can provide us with a note stating that we are or are not physically capable of performing flight duties. Of course all of that assumes when we see that doctor, we are actually still suffering from whatever made us unfit for duty. If we get asked for a note a couple days after we call in sick, then we make an appointment for a week or so from then; I'm not sure what limb the company wants the doctor to go out on to speculate on whether or not we were fit for duty at some time in the past.

This latest policy almost smells like the company has an outside insurance policy to cover "sick" expenses beyond a certain threshold. If I had such a policy, I'd want the ability to document the sick so I could collect. Just like the Miami Heat have coverage to pay for Chris Bosh's paycheck now that he is "sick". Hmmmm

Seems pretty straightforward. If sick, relate the general problem in the note. The Dr only needs to stipulate the general problem, not whether it qualifies as a nonflying ailment. The CP or the Dr will determine whether it qualifies. If speeding, don't give a note and take the loss of pay.

The point is, the CP or company Dr. should not be able to determine if the sick note from a doctor is "good enough".

If you have a note signed by an MD, that should suffice.

It should only have to say I was sick or under his care.

The details are none of their business.

......................

If "our" union agreed to this, that is not acceptable either.

Does anyone else find it disturbing that ALPA sent us an email, stating they were blindsided by the company releasing the details to this agreement? WTF? I guess it was supposed to be a big secret? And now they want to administer our retirement? Holy Sh!t Bat Man, we are in trouble!

It wasn't a secret. The sick leave arbitration happened over a year ago (5 Jul 16). The arbitration is a good thing and better than what we had. The recent news item on PFC is the company saying how they are going to implement the sick note process that was outlined in the grievance settlement that was published a year ago. I can imagine that the Union didn't get a heads up on this. I don't think it's the Union's fault that the company didn't consult them before publishing this email. If you haven't read the settlement, do so and see that this was an improvement from the BM days of sick leave witch hunts. In fact, I haven't heard of anyone getting asked for a note since the settlement came out. I've called in sick a couple times since then, once in the field, and haven't been asked for a note. Haven't even heard a peep except for the Crew Notification saying that I may be entitled to FMLA leave.

Maybe I'm just a sheep, but the thing that everyone is gnashing their teeth about with the doctor's note is so far down on the flowchart to get there, I'm not too concerned. I call in sick when I'm sick, any perceived threat that they are going to recode my trip from SCK to DRP doesn't change my obligation to myself and my fellow coworkers to not report to work when I'm sick.

The guy being honest with his CP in HKG thought that management was above board and open up until he got fired. It is not a matter of is the system onerous, because frankly it is not as currently enforced. But can management decide to adjust the system during peak or contract negotiations and take a couple hostages? Can they decided that you have too many head colds and demand you see an ENT. I am tasked with determining fit to fly, and it is supposed to be a subjective decision were I err on the side of caution. Bottomline think of it as an optimizer were the company holds all of the inputs. Has management earned any good faith recently? The reason we don't have our last 5% is because they are playing productivity games with seniority and Passover pay.

Quote:

7. Nothing in this Settlement Agreement shall be construed as an erosion of the Company's existing authority to conduct Section 19 proceedings concerning the circumstances of a pilot's use or attempted use of sick leave where the Company has the reasonable cause to suspect sick leave abuse, which circumstances include, but not alone be, a pilot's failure to provide Section 14.A.6 statement when required to do so. Likewise, nothing in this Settlement Agreement shall be construed as an erosion of the Association's ability to challenge the Company's action in doing so.

Unquote

The above paragraph makes it sound like you could put yourself in jeopardy if you don't provide a sick note to their satisfaction.

If I am not understanding this correctly, I'd sure like an explanation regarding what this paragraph means.

What's all this talk about? Didn't you guys recently vote in a new contract 😂😂😂😂

I'm thinking we should all just tell the company we are having problems with our ladyparts, and do they actually want more details?:eek:

Is your contract better?

Outsider looking in.. Why did your company decide to change the sick call rules? Did you have an exorbitant amount of sick calls all of a sudden?

I find it worrisome because our managers here at brown always look for ways to copy other airlines' procedures IF it suits them.
We typically get a "is everything ok" call from one of our instantaneous super-captains after 6 sick calls in a year.. I've never heard of anyone having to submit a doctor's note but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I just never heard of it..

I hope your union succeeds in reversing this rule and that our company never adopts it.. Good luck!
Sorry for butting in.

The administration of SL use was modified 4 years ago. The new evaluation system triggered automated requests for SL documentation (as permitted in our CBA). Previously Mgt would call and do a little dance to say, hey you've been sick a lot anything we should worry about. wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

New system triggered so low there were folks who hadn't been sick in 3 years being threatened with advisory letters if they didn't provide documentation from a Doctor as to why they had called in sick.

We grieved it. Main argument (which was ridiculed here) was that the threshold was way, way too low.

Negotiated settlement was reached last year (emailed to all but unread or forgotten by many). Tempers reached boiling level when Mgt announced had finished all of the programming/hiring agreed to in the settlement last week (with a link to the actual settlement).

So, at FedEx we still notify the Computer we're unfit to fly. Company has a limited amount of time to determine whether there's a Good Faith reason to think we're abusing SL documentation and a Human will have to decide to request documentation or communication from us as to why we called in sick.

The paranoics are assuming mgt Won't accept a head cold, self-medicated with OTC or GI issues statement which would result in the trip(s) in question being changed to a Dropped trip code (no pay and no way to make it up) and the SL being restored to the SL bank

To add on,
system ran for awhile and then management put a new sheriff in charge and he ratcheted things down to a more realistic level.

I received a note under the old system with the statement that I had called in sick before my R days and blah, blah, get us a note.
Which was way annoying because I was so Junior at the time that all I could hold was R days...and, I had called in sick during my previous block of R days 4 days earlier.

So the paranoiacs were right for a while but then management graciously dialed down the sick leave optimizer. Not to worry then.

I was thinking the SAME thing !

:)

Slugo,

I read it when it came out and I read it again when the company put out this latest rubbish. It doesn't really matter what the settlement reads. What matters is how the company interprets the settlement. We usually produce verbiage that is very "Gray" to a good team of lawyers.

Unlike you. I got a request this year for a sick note. I had two sick calls in the prior 15 months. 6 sick calls total in the prior 37 months.

I flew with a guy who said he got a request for one of our trips he called in for. He said it was his first call in 3 years. I didn't believe him, so I looked at his schedule. I only went back 24 months, but he was clean for that long.

So it happens, only now it is going to be much harder to get paid when it does.

How about if we give them a note that states that we are complying with FAR 61.53:

§61.53 Prohibition on operations during medical deficiency.
(a) Operations that require a medical certificate. Except as provided for in paragraph (b) of this section, no person who holds a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter may act as pilot in command, or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember, while that person:

(1) Knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation; or

(2) Is taking medication or receiving other treatment for a medical condition that results in the person being unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation.

(b) is for Operations that do not require a medical certificate)

What ultimately happens to your unused sick time?

I've been on property about a year and a half. I haven't called in sick yet. I'm a mil background so I've never dealt with "calling in sick."

All this letter did for me was confuse me how to call in sick. I guess my question is, what is the companies preferred method/timeline to call in sick? >24hrs? That's about the only metric that I can think of that would be remotely reasonable for them to ask of the pilot force.

So,
did any of the paranoics lose their pay?

Sick timeline, if I know I'm not going to be healthy enough to fly the trip then I call in 24+ hours prior to show (by now I hope we all are sufficiently in tune with our health to have an idea how long recovering from a cold or flu takes)

I've called in sick after show (trip was a DH into a 24'sh hour layover). Scratched cornea, on that one company asked for a Drs note 7+ days later after I'd already called in well and went back to work. For that one I called scheduling and asked them to list me sick and why as well as emailing my FC expecting that it might trigger questions.

I've called in sick during the drive into the AOC 4-5'sh hours prior to show. During the Capt "0" days and oddly enough no questions on that one.

I've dealt with food poisoning in flight and that's just not a fun place to be...FE at the time (notifed company, no questions asked)

Prior to BM's reign of terror, Mgt contacted me twice with questions re my sick leave. No qualms on my part of telling the company my rationale for being sick.

They don't get a vote

UPS pilots are always welcome on our threads. What affects one pilot group can easily affect another.

I'll give you a rundown on what happened a couple of years ago, and where this all stemmed from. I think the settlement's entire goal is to stop the dreaded "advisory letters" from the new tracking system that management implemented.

A couple of months before peak, was it 3 years ago, maybe, they implemented a new sick tracking system without giving the pilots any notice or information about it. Now many (seemingly random) things triggered a high points value, and at a specific number, they required a letter from your doctor. Okay. But you know how they notified, at least some people? By company email. Brilliant. Who reads their company email when they're sick? And we were getting multiple emails daily about the new iPads, so if you didn't read your email daily, the request for a doctors note could easily get buried.

Instead of calling people or putting in a VIPS notification, the first thing they did is FedEx a bunch of very nasty advisory letters to people's front door. It chastised them for not sending in the requested doctor's letter, and gave themselves permission to discipline you for further incidents. Some genius really thought that people were ignoring requests for letters (like, who actually does that?). :confused:

Some of the pilots who got letters hadn't called in sick for years. Some of the people sent the requested doctors letters when they actually knew they were wanted, with evidence of serious issues, and the letters were not retracted. I don't know if the company got the intended result or not (people being afraid to call in sick during peak). But I do know that they managed to **** off people who are normally gung ho, anything for the company types.

This is a pilot group that does not react well to being threatened. But give us good coffee, free popcorn, sleep rooms and positive feedback, and we'll do anything.

I don't know my guess is yes. But the point is the company has never had written unilateral procedures for docking my pay if my Doctor is not loquacious enough for them. Up until they unilaterally decided to turn up the heat it was spelled out fairly clearly what required a note. It still is. I guess I should be grateful they decided to dial it down a notch for now.

The company should get more productivity out of the pilots with money, not intimidation.

BM's reign of terror began late summer/early autumn 2013.

My guess on the paranoics is that NO they didn't lose pay, but were irritated (rightfully so) about being questioned for using SL with minimal use of it in recent history.

Have to wonder what some of us thought the company would do prior to BMs reign of terror when they felt they had a good faith reason (or Holiday, or DSA use) and requested a note and the answer given was pound sand-it's a HIPAA violation and I'm not telling you squat.

Wonder if it's a subset of the people who think fatigue calls or JS failure are pay protected

That wasn't about people being irritated about being questioned. It is about people who were threatened with discipline, who had never gotten an advisory letter in their file before, who had valid sick calls......getting a nasty letter from management plunked down on their doorstep purely because they hadn't read an email.

That would make anyone paranoid.

New guy here, but has the Sick Call Point System ever been clearly described to the Pilot group or is it super secret like the the Application Point System?

The latter.

Actually, I think there is more public data about the hiring process. We at least had the opportunity to attend briefings by the qua... umm, doctor. :rolleyes:






.

I'll tell you what ... how about if Management has the same criteria in order to call in sick?

I wonder what the FAA would think about this program?

MM

:confused:

As I said previously, if Harvey Watt is reviewing our sick notes, there is a conflict of interest. We are a customer for disability insurance and the company is a customer for sick note review. Harvey Watt meanwhile creates a profile on its insurance policy holders that provided actual medical diagnoses..that the company gave them through our submission.

Harvey Watt then has a file that could potentially be used to drop us from insurance coverage or deny us further coverage. My point is, they are not an uninterested neutral third party as the company wants us to believe! They are obviously in bed with each other and we need legal intervention now! I'm not a lawyer but it probably violates an ethical code of conduct in the insurance industry.

That must be nice ...

You always know 24 hours in advance when you'll be sick.

You have no issues sharing your private medical information with your SCP designee.

You trust your SCP designee to do the right thing.


I'm a little less perfect.

I don't always know when I'll be sick that soon in advance. When you're driving to work 4-5-ish hours prior to show, I'm probably sleeping. (And I'm not going to tell your ACP you're not resting. ;) ) If I wake up with a sore throat, I may be inside the parameters that would trigger a sick call inquiry.

I rarely know when I'll be injured.

I doubt I'll know in advance when other non-illness and non-injury conditions will occur which despite not meeting the PFC.com announcement's definition of "Sick eligible" events would nevertheless render me unfit to fly according to the FAA's IMSAFE personal checklist.

Finally, I've been burned by ACP "judgment" before, and don't depend on it in the future. I've also had positive interactions, but I don't ever count on them, and I certainly wouldn't bet a paycheck on them.

In my first year at FedEx (which predated a CBA and probation), my new-hire classmate sim partner and I both had 6CH trips on New Year's Eve. His was operate one leg out, one leg back, arrive in Memphis (my home) in the afternoon. Mine was one leg out to an east coast airport near his home, then deadhead back to Memphis. By swapping trips, we could both be at our respective homes almost a half day earlier. My trip was CIC M/U -- first time I did that, and last time. VIPS rejected our swap request because his was a different trip code. VIPS rejected mutual PDO bump. We couldn't DROP and then pick up each other's trips because it was one of "those" holidays. We called scheduling -- they couldn't help. So we called the ACP. His answer was, "If scheduling won't do it, there's nothing I can do about it." We thought about swapping IDs and flying each other's trips, but wound up biting the bullet and both of us got home later than we could have. Thank you ACP, your helpfulness has been repaid with decades of our goodwill.

I also take a dim view of sharing my medical condition with strangers, much less with submitting my medical condition for judgment by people who have no medical training. Sure, it seems harmless and common sensical to tell the boss you felt a cold coming on. Will you feel as comfortable next time explaining that funny rash in your groin?

I imagine The Company would prefer we all open up and use the third option for satisfying the Section 14.A.6. inquiry -- just talk to the SCP designee. It would relieve the need for anybody to provide sick notes, and it would relieve the need to involve The Company's aeromedical adviser. Just tell your ACP, and trust him to reach the same conclusion about your status that you, the pilot actually involved, the pilot actually tasked by the FAA to make the judgment, using your best judgment, made at the time. Just trust them.

Yeah, right.


Let's consider a hypothetical situation and how the "new paradigm" varies from the way sick use has occurred in the past. Let's consider a pilot who lives in base and is preparing to leave the house for the 30-minute drive to work. Suddenly, the calmness is pierced by a blood-curdling scream from his young child. He and his wife run to the sound and find their young daughter covered in blood from an accident of some sort, but they still don't know what exactly happened. What he DOES know is there's an ER visit in the near future, and probably stitches.

In the past, the pilot would not hesitate to scoop up the daughter, perform first aid to stop the bleeding, and head to the ER with his wife and daughter. Before arriving at the ER, he'll have a chance to make the VIPS entry "calling in" SICK, or maybe he'll call crew scheduling to have them do it. He might even explain to the crew scheduler what's going on with his young child being injured.

Under the new paradigm, the pilot will remember that he can only justify SICK calls with a personal injury or illness. He may recall his oldest son starts college at State University soon, and the first tuition payment is due next month. He really can't afford to lose the pay for the 6-day trip he's about to start, so he decides to "compartmentalize." He helps his wife and daughter in the car, takes a few minutes to wipe the blood splatter off his white shirt, and heads to work. He's on the phone with his wife all the way to the parking lot, by which time she has "checked in" at the ER. He rides the crew bus to his own check in, and then heads to the computer to check the flight plan. A text message here, another there, and before long he's on the crew bus headed to the airplane. More text messages, Mom has them checked in at the ER and they're waiting. And waiting. And daughter's nauseous now. The pilot isn't distracted in the least while doing the exterior inspection, because he can "compartmentalize." He'll probably catch any discrepancies. He probably will do OK during his cockpit setup, too, because we're "real men," and the text message from his wife explaining how frustrated she is that they're still in the waiting room won't bother him at all. When he transposes a couple of numbers on the Take-Off data, at least there will be another set of eyes to catch it. His phone vibrates during take-off roll, indicating a new text message from Mom. At least he'll wait until passing through FL180 before reading that his daughter has finally been seen, and it looks like a broken bone, too. It should lead to an interesting conversation at cruise altitude.

The pilot isn't physically ill, nor is he injured, so he didn't qualify for SICK time usage. And yet, according to the FAA's IMSAFE personal checklist, he's NOT fit to be flying.

Why would you trust an SCP designee who pushes the pilot make such a choice?







.

Call the Duty Officer and he/she will drop your trip with the emergency code. You don't get paid and you can keep your sick bank intact to sell back at 50%. Win- Win. (Sarcasm in full effect)

Nailed it yet again Tony! What could possibly go wrong :eek:

Must be the only guy who wakes up with a cold on Saturday and is somehow magically able to predict that I'm not going to be fit to fly on a Monday.

Shoot, I probably could fly-coughing 4 or 5 times a minute...but I tend to be of the mindset that if I'm coughing that frequently or having a tough time equalizing the pressure in my ears that an airplane is the last place in the world I want to be.

Driving to work, call him. Call RF right now and tell him there's some guy on the internet who thinks it's somehow okay to drive to work 4-5 hours early instead of resting. I would welcome that conversation anytime.

Personally, I tend to think that's a good example of managing my rest.
Why would anyone hav issues with me making the 25-30 minute trip into the AOC to get a sleep room at 8-9pm? Taking full advantage of our sleep rooms and loving the relatively recent addition of the wakeup call program.

What ifs? What if your hypothetical trip is a single departure in excess of current SL balance? Do I still get to not answer? Do I make something up? Or do I tell my FC why I felt I wasn't fit to fly, asking me if they really want me in the cockpit under situations like that...and then tell them I think it's an unsafe decision illustrating poor judgment and that I'll be filing an ASAP report and requesting my Union to engage with the company in hopes of sanity breaking out.

In my real world experience, my wife and kids happened to be about 2 gates away from Security in N'awlins when whacko guy came through and was shot. There was much chaos and mayhem. I learned of it thanks to a tense, tense call from the wife about 10 minutes prior to bus time. I elected to involve the DO in my decision making. I also don't keep secrets from whomever I am flying with.

Or, maybe your Fleet Captain will let you cover your absence with Vacation days.


Some vacation. :rolleyes:






.

Amen brother! No one gets sick less than 24 hours before a trip!:rolleyes::rolleyes::eek:

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, refusing to see a different perspective, or just being intentionally dense.

Good for you, you always get sick 2 days before the start of the trip. What if the trip started Saturday afternoon, or you wake up with the cold on Monday, with only hours to go before show time?

Never mind, I think we can expect you to avoid answering.


Do you have a doctor's note explaining why you cannot perform your duties, or are you just making that judgment on your own, like the FAA requires you to do?


You obviously missed the allusion to past conversations about pilots removed from trips by flight operations managers because those managers deemed them unfit to fly their trips because they used a jumpseat to commute to work.

How are they different from locals who are mowing their lawns or driving in to work early? The judgment call is the pilot's, not the manager's.

And if you think I would ever for any reason report a pilot to flight management for ANY reason before taking NUMEROUS other steps to address an issue, you have sorely misjudged me. I thought the inclusion of the only emoticon in my post, the sarcasm look, would have helped you catch the sarcasm. Unfortunately, that's not the only thing you seem intent on missing.


And why would anyone have issues with me sleeping on the jumpseat on the way to work?

Crew Scheduling sure didn't have any issues with me using the MEM-ANC AM jumpseat to meet an AM launch 2 hours after arriving in ANC -- when it was a draft trip they were trying to fill. Seems like it depends on the "needs of the Company" more than the judgment of the FAA certificated Airman.


That is EXACTLY what YOU do. Tell your Fleet Captain why. Give him a detailed description of the pustules, and send him a picture of the infected area. That will save everyone the trouble of sick notes or the cost of Company Aeromedical advisor involvement.

What > I < do, and what we should all do, is advise the same manager, using the well-established method of calling in SICK via VIPS, that I am not fit to fly. PERIOD. Details are NONE of his damn business.

But you, go ahead. I'm sure you'll get a better deal by describing your malady in detail.


Oh yeah, an ASAP after the fact along with a call to your union will make it OK to fly sick.


Good for you. Now try -- just TRY -- to put yourself in the shoes of someone who will suffer significant economic hardship if he makes that call and throws himself on the mercy of the Fleet Captain's judgment. I know, I know, it's a stretch because you're so much better than that, but try to identify with some of the other 4,572 of us lesser humans.



By the way, are you also of the opinion that we don't really want real time trip trading?





.

So the source document, Admin Grievance 13-17 was signed July 2016, that's a year to get it "programmed". Not sure how you came up with days?

Regarding retirement; I think the 260K cap and 25YOS cap is good enough reason to look into a fix. But maybe you would expect someone drop out of the sky and offer us some help on this? Maybe you prefer the 1999 cap on earnings as you blow past that?

Smarten up. Black helicopters and boggie monsters don't fix anything.
:)

Why would I not answer?

And no, didn't miss the emoticon but also didn't want you to misunderstand my irritation.

Jumpseat-if FC wants to remove me with pay, all for it. Last line of defense is pilot judgment , and although judgment is impaired by fatigue absent some concrete actions at show time there is absolutely no reason for FC to intervene. (it's never been CRS in my experience, CRS would have no issues scheduling us for 24 hours straight if the computer would let them...I have had CRS use judgment, but it's a rare rare thing. Also never had a DO not support me when I pushed back on CRS BS plan. But I've only been a Capt for about 5 years, so that's recent history)
Back to the JS, our own CBA says that if the FAA ever considers JS duty time that the contractual section becomes null and void.

Back to sick. When I wake up with a cold that's gone from minor to severe, I know that it takes me about a week to recover. If it's 24-48 hours prior to show, then I call in sick. When I scratched my cornea, that's a week+ to recover, so I immediately called in sick. There is nothing preventing me from calling in well prior to the drop time if I recover quicker then expected...but that's not been my experience.
When I became ill driving into the AOC at 1 in the morning, I actually did call CRS and tell them I was sick.

United for awhile required a Drs note with every sick call. American requires their pilots to talk to an actual person to use their SL.

DOL allows companies to ask you for medical documentation in certain circumstances.
Our own contract has a long, long history of allowing the company to request information as to why we called in sick under certain circumstances.

If you're the guy being asked for a note on July 12th and you haven't called in sick for 3 years...then ask the company to explain their good faith reason for doing so, as for me, after pushing back I'm going to tell them I had GI issues (if I did) and offer to provide pictures for future occurrences should theu so desire.

If they say not good enough, then sorry, still filing an ASAP report because quite frankly taking away pay is definitely an illustration of pilot pushing and should be documented as such.

There are exactly 0 trips open in my seat. Explain to me how RTT makes my life better. Would reduce the annoyance of waiting/wondering if a trip went through. But I already have a pretty decent idea of my odds since the software change showing pending trades on specific trips.

Make OTP a never go away provision and then we'll talk about RTT

Why do I call in sick early? Not looking it up but still think there's contractual language that indicates we're supposed to call in sick when we're sick.

And, when I was an FE, had a Captain that called in sick 5 minutes prior to show because he was PO'd at the company. Specifically stayed up to call in sick just prior to show. 80 minute delay for the FO and I while CRS found us another Captain

still shaking my head on that one