You’re right, I don’t think he’d been in space recently. The Captains around the table only get the records selected by HR. But maybe Pinseeker’s right, why should we care? What good is any of this doing and why does it even matter?

I can tell you some of the things that I wouldn't count against an applicant. (These have 0 bearing mil or civ)
The degree not being from a private university or service academy.
Taking more than 4 years to accomplish a degree.
Grade point average.
Too many recommendations.
Too many flight hours.
Nepotism should be encouraged not frowned upon.

Many are trying to make this a military/civilian thing. I totally disagree. This is a pilot/non pilot screening thing. Whether we want to acknowledge it or not, this profession had always had some input from pilots. It is different than your run of the mill job working 9 to 5 downtown. There is a lot about a person that is important in this profession that can't be determined on an application. This is where an endorsement plays the part. That doesn't mean someone without an endorsement shouldn't be vetted/interviewed/hired. We have all had that one person that you worked with in the past that is dangerous to fly with yet every year seems to pass all their rides. We now have no avenue to convey this information to the company. One thing most don't want to admit is there is a big difference between flight time and flight experience. Pilots know that but bean counters don't.

We have hired some great individuals in the past few years. However, this is the first time since many of us have been at the company that there is a perceived problem with attitudes from some new hires, not all but enough to have notice taken. So much so that the chief pilot sent a letter to all the captains making sure they did evaluations on all of the new pilots. Who would ever think that would be an issue with winning the preverbal airline lottery IMHO? In this case, personal endorsements can help eliminate this from happening or fix the problem.

A lot of these "clowns" you speak have some of our most experienced Instructors and Standards pilots willing to play their "one in 10 year trump card" just for them to be taken a look at. I am sorry but take a 25 year standards captain that can type a pilot in the sim, then take them on a 10 day trip around the world when they haven't been west of the Mississippi and sign them off, should be able to make an input on who would make a good pilot here and in my humble opinion, people should listen. That standards pilot can be a from a mil or civilian background which is totally irrelevant to this conversation.

Package

Well said!

Just to be clear, these “clowns” you infer I disparaged, were in reference to some other person calling his fellow colleagues, “clowns.” Which is precisely why I put it in quotes in my post. Other than that, I agree with you.

After re-reading it, I see your point of the statement. My bad for thinking you were throwing some apps under the bus. The company currently takes into account "who" the PE is from but unfortunately the PE doesn't do much good either way. And, yes just like every other airline we have our share of "eccentric" individuals. And now under our current hiring practice, we have some new hire problems that we've never had before. My take from my previous post is what I took away from the initial post. This thread went south quick with a mil/civ which had absolutely nothing to do with is and a PE/No PE competition. My interpretation is that no one is saying that someone without a PE can't be considered/vetted/interviewed and hired but that the PE process might help eliminate some issues we are having, especially with the credibility of some of the endorsers.

Example
 

To the point of this post: I am a retired Colonel, Vice Wing Commander, Weapons School Instructor with 23 years of flying experience. FedEx was my top choice as I entered the airline application process. Delta showed up first with an interview, immediately followed by a CJO. Before I reported for INDOC with Delta, FedEx finally offered an interview opportunity, but it was during Delta INDOC. I asked for them to work with me on dates, but they couldn't accommodate my request. I stayed with Delta.

A highly qualified candidate received invites at two of the most sought after flying jobs in the world... sure seems like the system worked in this case. Sorry FDX wasn’t more flexible... you should have a great career ahead at Delta

Your wife just won. You get to deal with pax (bad), but can drive to work and have a choice of some great domestic domiciles. Your wife just got the chance to (when not stuck in an airport) go anywhere in the world Delta goes. I'd have enjoyed having you as an FO here, but momma is gonna dig the new job. Hope you both have a blast! Ditto for another Delta new hire friend of yours with a similar bio. Crab Island won't care if you work for Delta or FedEx...you win either way.

I'm sure that this debate is far from over. I think however that aside from several acquaintances that I would consider "rock stars" that have been passed over, my own story is an interesting examination of current hiring practices. My qualifications:

Full time SIM instructor
LCA with over 10k hours, Captain since 2003
CQ gound instructor and developer of training programs
SME and developer of CRM/TEM and human factors program
Developer and instructor in Leadership and Professionalism program
Decent guy with a good sense of humor and non maloderous

For many years, I,like many others coveted the Fedex grail. I had an app in since 2005 knowing that only legacies were getting hired back in the days of sponsors. After many years with no real hiring but nonetheless regular updates I decided to give it up.

Fast forward to early last year when a good friend was hired into the 777. He convinced me that I should try again. He and another friend felt that I could at least get my app looked at as they had been helping with some preparations for last year's open house. So early last year I updated my app and continued to update once per week. Had it proofed and was told that I was an uncommonly qualified candidate.

I put in my info to get an invite to the "first come first served" open house. I clicked "submit" within seconds of the site going live. The next day (2 days before the invitation emails went out), my friend was in the room with the nice lady who helps make the decisions on who gets a call. She had my app in her hand and mentioned to my friend that the university that I graduated from is not on their preferred list. I didn't get an invitation to the open house and obviously never got an interview.

In my years as a Captain and instructor I've seen good and bad pilots from both civilian and military backgrounds. I've never seen the school that they attended to have much of a bearing on anything. And that is of course just one of many silly things that they are using to separate out candidates.

I've made my peace and I'm not bitter. I have an amazing job making a lot of money and home most of the time, and with only 15 years to go, I'm quite satisfied. Its just always a gnawing sense of disappointment that I never even got a chance to talk to someone. Just seems like a barrier for a barrier's sake. No real rhyme or reason to it and great pilots left by the wayside.

I hope airlines take a look at this and someone changes it. I dont care if it's a computer or a human making the initial score but pilots should be given points for their pilot credentials, not what school they went to.

I'm sure that this debate is far from over. I think however that aside from several acquaintances that I would consider "rock stars" that have been passed over, my own story is an interesting examination of current hiring practices. My qualifications:

Full time SIM instructor
LCA with over 10k hours, Captain since 2003
CQ gound instructor and developer of training programs
SME and developer of CRM/TEM and human factors program
Developer and instructor in Leadership and Professionalism program
Decent guy with a good sense of humor and non maloderous

For many years, I,like many others coveted the Fedex grail. I had an app in since 2005 knowing that only legacies were getting hired back in the days of sponsors. After many years with no real hiring but nonetheless regular updates I decided to give it up.

Fast forward to early last year when a good friend was hired into the 777. He convinced me that I should try again. He and another friend felt that I could at least get my app looked at as they had been helping with some preparations for last year's open house. So early last year I updated my app and continued to update once per week. Had it proofed and was told that I was an uncommonly qualified candidate.

I put in my info to get an invite to the "first come first served" open house. I clicked "submit" within seconds of the site going live. The next day (2 days before the invitation emails went out), my friend was in the room with the nice lady who helps make the decisions on who gets a call. She had my app in her hand and mentioned to my friend that the university that I graduated from is not on their preferred list. I didn't get an invitation to the open house and obviously never got an interview.

In my years as a Captain and instructor I've seen good and bad pilots from both civilian and military backgrounds. I've never seen the school that they attended to have much of a bearing on anything. And that is of course just one of many silly things that they are using to separate out candidates.

I've made my peace and I'm not bitter. I have an amazing job making a lot of money and home most of the time, and with only 15 years to go, I'm quite satisfied. Its just always a gnawing sense of disappointment that I never even got a chance to talk to someone. Just seems like a barrier for a barrier's sake. No real rhyme or reason to it and great pilots left by the wayside.

I hope airlines take a look at this and someone changes it. I dont care if it's a computer or a human making the initial score but pilots should be given points for their pilot credentials, not what school they went to.