SDP
 

Does anyone have any practical experience with this new nugget of goodness from our 2015 CBA?

“The training slot you requested is being denied due to Staffing Needs.
You will receive a continuous Slot Denial Payment (SDP) each month
(beginning SEP18) until you are awarded or assigned a slot as
long as you continue to bid each month and are again denied another
do not bid enough, and you are senior enough to be awarded a slot,
you will not be entitled to an SDP for that month (refer to CBA
Section 24 for more information).”

Was your written word for word like that?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

pretty much. some content seems to be missing because it doesn’t exactly make sense in some parts

Yep but trust the union to negotiate a new retirement plan. That entire 2015 CBA is a load of crap. I still don’t understand why anybody voted for this POS. But to each his own. SMF

What's your current seat and what seat is your training for (what did you bid?)

a300 f/o to 75 capt

CBA Sec 24. E. SLOT DENIAL PAYMENT (SDP)...better than an STD!

Payment for WB F/O to NB CA is =$3,500! Not too shabby. Per month as long as you continue to bid available training dates and the company continues to deny your award...and assuming your not age restricted.

Watch out for the carryover language though...it could bite you if you bid carryover and it conflicts with the training slot. It essentially says you have made an invalid bid.

From the CBA:
iii. A bid for a training slot that conflicts with a carryover trip, or carryover block of R-days, from the previous bid period, shall be deemed an invalid bid. A training slot conflicts with a carryover trip if there are less than 48 hours between the scheduled termination of the carryover trip (at the time of the Training Bid processing), and the beginning of the local base day (e.g., 0130 LBT) on which the training slot is scheduled to start. A training slot conflicts with a carryover block of R-days unless there are at least two local base days between the last scheduled carryover R-day, and the local base day on which the training slot is scheduled to start. This 48 hour buffer may not be waived.

iv. Denial of Training Slots

(a) The Company may choose to deny a pilot a training slot award, or bypass a pilot when inversely assigning training slots, because of:
(1) Staffing needs in the “FROM” crew position;
(2) Regulated age considerations;
(3) The Company’s desired syllabus type for a given training slot does not satisfy the pilot’s minimum required training syllabus type; or
(4) New hire training requirements.

(b) A pilot who is denied a training slot award shall be entitled to Slot Denial Payment(s) (SDP) in accordance with Section 24.E.

thanks. you should get w AS. She’s looking for volunteers to staff the CAT.

I'd love to see the stats on how many people are truly awarded SDP. I'm thinking the number is going to be in the single digits.

How could the union negotiators give up Passover Pay for this crap SDP language. And carryover, something the company WANTS you to fly, makes your bid invalid?? Who negotiated this crap? What the heck were they thinking?

I read the contract. I voted H**L NO !!! But to think we are just learning about little pitfalls like this is ridiculous.

I've said this many times now, I have no idea why people are coming to this company over the other alternatives. ALPA screwed us tremendously with this contract. We aren't going to get it fixed the next time around. We are going to get our throats cut because the crew force is so divided, not just young versus old, but ALPA supporters versus those who hate ALPA and those who don't want a union.

I share your sentiments about CBA 2015. However, I think you'd be hard pressed to find too many pilots at FedEx (or any airline for that matter) who would opt to have no union at all. It's always been a necessary evil in my view, warts and all.

That said, the incompetence of those involved in negotiating CBA 2015 is truly amazing. Either that, or they saw all these pitfalls, loopholes and vague language and sent it out anyway. Whichever one it was, they really should feel nothing but shame.

I read these changes to sec 24 of the TA and asked the questions. It was considered a give back to the company. what did we get in return? what did the union architect of sec 24 get in return? one good thing about our current MEC is the commitment to not take a job with the company for 5 years after leaving office. I wonder if our new leader will honor this.

But at 5yrs+1day they’re good to go huh? 😏 I see no change there

Good. That means people are bidding for and being awarded a training slot when they want, rather than when the company wants you to go and then it being changed three or more times. Under the old system, how many people went to training in the slot that they were originally scheduled after the vacancy bid? I’m thinking that number was in the single digits. We should hope that nobody gets SDP. That means that the bid-for-training is working and people are going when they choose to go (seniority dependent, of course). I’ll take the new bid-for-training/SDP system over the old “here’s your training date, make your life plans; sorry... here’s your new training date, rearrange your plans; sorry... here’s your new, new training date, make new, new plans...” system. Definitely a CBA win for me.

Bidding for seats and training dates just doesn’t have to be this hard or complicated. Since we follow the passenger carriers on fuel requirements maybe we should follow them on some other things.

This. Seniority based system of bidding for training is what we asked for and what was delivered. Company denies your seniority driven ability to go to school, then they have to pay based on the seat differential. Still do not see how anyone thinks this was not a gain. Unless we are back to wanting to dictate to the corporation when they train and how they staff their airline. :rolleyes:

Maybe it is because I never got a ticket on the Passover gravy train, but I will take this system over the old way every time. That being said, my final ITU was years ago and my date was moved 3 times a total of 17 weeks.

Bid go training is good when done the correct way. This system is different than any other airline. You should have to bid on a training class every month. Do your research and find out how other companies do their bid for training.

Or do system bids in general. These once a year MOAB’s are a huge QOL killer.

Anthrax check your PM please.

except ... I didn’t get the training date that I had requested and now ... the company will pay less than what passover pay would have been. so really the company still dictates your training date for less pay. and yes, I was senior enough in the bid to hold this training date. but someone junior will go instead because ... apparently the a300 F/O seat is undermanned, so where is the vacation buy-back FCIF? the AV trips? ah, forget about it. I’m gonna go for a swim. been doing situps. my abs are fabulous.

Let’s wait to hear the response from those who support the POS contract.

Do they? You’re upgrading from WB FO to NB Capt. That’s a pay difference of $42.07/hour (at year 12 pay). In a nominal 4-week, 72 hour month, that’s a $3,029 difference, or $3,575 in an 85 hour, 5-week month. You should be getting around $3,710 in SDP. Where’s the loss? Especially since you’ll get SDP now. Immediately. Instead of when the junior guy who started training this month ahead of you gets activated in his seat 4 months from now, which is when you would have started POP under the old contract. How again is this a loss?

Just of note. The numbers above are a good bit different if you use 4th year pay as an example.

NB CAPT $238.73-WB FO $176.65= $62.08/hr

@4 weeks and 72 thats $4,469.76 and 85 $5,276.80

Of course we could just have postings regularly like every other airline in the country and the conversation would be over

They look fabulous in your photo.

Hold My Beer
 

You don't know what you don't know.

How is SDP a huge giveback? When you are on SDP, you get paid at your current seat rate plus the SDP. POP paid everything at the future higher paying seat rate to include vacation buyback, 401k contributions, continual training pay, office work, or draft/overages. With the new system, all of those extra pay provisions are paid at the current or lower seat rate. This is a biggie.

For those of us who were stuck for years on the 757 waiting to upgrade (because of the lack of sims, FAA type rating issue, and combining/separating the bid packs etc.etc.), we made a lot more money than what we would have on SDP.

On my last year on the 757, I made more money than some of the Captains I flew with (getting draft, selling vacation, being bought off my trip for training/ITU). I easily made a high five. A friend made $335,000!!! I calculated that had I been on SDP, I would have lost at least $45,000. And that doesn't count the difference in 401k contributions. Not many people can claim high fives while being on the lowest paying seat in the company. I can. Yes, SDP is a huge giveback.

Myth ... we get to pick when we want to go to training and we can plan vacation around it. News alert: NO YOU CAN'T. All you know is that you are X out of Y people given the same award. Your seniority compared to the others is Z%. You can't possibly predict what the people above you are going to bid. But remember ...

You are still at the company's discretion when you'll go to training. You are BIDDING on training. That isn't a guarantee. Just because you are senior to a bunch of people with the same award, that does not guarantee you will go to ITU when you want.

In my real world example, the pilots beneath you may be stuck in a undermanned seat and the company needs you to go first. So they slot denial them and inverse assign you. Determining when you'll go to training is a crap shoot especially if you aren't the very senior bubbas at the top. At least with the training letter there was a plan. Yeah it moved, was unpredictable, but it was a plan. Now we have no plan, just guesses.

We also didn't get small bids which is what we wanted. We still have these large system bids which take a year or more to train. What many of us thought we were getting was a system like what other airlines have where the company posts monthly what ITU slots are available. There is no "award" bid. Should you be senior enough to win a bid to train for the following month, you convert and start training the next month. It effectively combines our award and training bid processes into one simple step. If you have important life events next month, don't bid to go to ITU next month. Simple.

So, in the end, we lost POP which made a lot of people rich. We still have big bids which take a year or more to train. And in my opinion, you have LESS control over when you go to training unless you are the super senior.

Since we lost POP, instructors or LCAs who were awarded a higher paying seat now get SDP for 24 months (it's called CIPPA actually). After 24 months, the contract language dictates that you SHALL be released from training/LCA and enter the ITU bidding process. No word yet on how that is going to affect training staffing .. but nonetheless, a huge giveback. I think the company did this to help get what they really want, professional instructors and return all of us back to the line.

This.
Added, the company never has to open up F/O seats in a bid if they are hiring... all they have to do is have Captains bids. They just throw new hires where they need F/Os, and current F/Os (especially on the 757 who want to move) will only get to move if enough F/Os in the seat they want move as well.
That way, there is never a bid that will trigger SDP even though a new hire way junior to you gets trained before you. That was how a lot of us got POP while monkeying switches in the back of the 727... company ducks out of a lot of passover pay, and pilots miss out. Theoretically, a guy could get stuck in the 757 for a really long time, if the company doesn’t open up F/O vacancies.

SDP
 

Wouldn’t new hire junior activation compensation be triggered in this situation?

The company must offer any positions to those on the seniority list before any new hire. That’s s change. However, they can still SDP you until they want you to move.

I did not know that the company had to offer positions to folks if they gave them to new hires... is that accurate? I have buds who want to go to the triple - or another wide body - but are stuck on the 757 and haven’t been paid jack... one of this things you have to claim before they’ll give it to you?

They were probably seat locked for two years.

There’s no seat lock for narrow to wide.

Good catch. You're correct.


As for the folks on the 757 wanting to go to the 777 while junior people get hired and put onto the 777, I think your answer is in 24.F.6.



The language is confusing for me. But I think they are entitled to Junior New Hire Compensation Pay.



They need to contact ALPA.

Thanks, fat boy. This was all pointed out during the TA, but the “yes” folks for whatever reason didn’t listen or fully understand the argument. it’s exhausting trying to explain what we lost in this contract. i give up. in starting this thread i was looking for insights from those who have gone down this road, and really not for the defenders of this contract to tell me how wonderful this is. it’s not wonderful. wake up.

Haven't heard from you in a loooong time, ARax. Feeling ok? Don't tell me you got a talking to for belittling the company and its' great employees. Yup...great company, not perfect, but still a great place to work. Except when one has to fly with you. LOL

There is a private message system for such messages.

But since you revived this thread, losing passover pay was probably the single greatest giveback/financial loss or violation of seniority the FedEx pilots have ever experienced. And worse, people were warned and still voted for it.

You're right. My bad. Won't happen again.

Say what you want, everyone else does. Anyways, the rest of us get to enjoy the show.:D