BlueMoon

Nicely done.

Also of note, the FAR 117, 2 hour extension (or 30 minute extension). Can’t be used to reschedule you into another leg in the field.

Unlike our operational limits, where once your at work they can add another leg to take you to whatever operational limit you fall under.

pinseeker

CBA : Unless the company declares an operational emergency, then all duty is extended to maximum FAR limits.

UnusualAttitude

Anyone have an idea on how many operational emergencies we average per year?

Reserve rules should also be compared. CBA vs 117.

kronan

When someone says No more extensions to FAR limits, what I hear is I need the Govt to prevent from FedEx from extending me to 16 hours because I can't say No.

Most of my FedEx flying has been 2 leg's during a duty period. For a whole bunch of my Day flying experiences, the FAR 117 max extend is still 16 hours.
By far, vast majority of my Night hub turns would be out to 14 hours under FAR 117

These are my two most recent Operational Emergency experiences.
Last one I arrived in Memphis about 2330, grabbed a sleep room-set a 15 minute wakeup call.
Woke up around 6 AM wondering if I'd missed the call, logged into PFC and learned my "expected" departure time was around 0830. Visited the facilities and semi-dozed until called around 0715. Got dressed, met my FO, looked at Auto-verify, said the alert call is BS let's revisit it in about 30. Went out to the airplane a bit before 8. Loading finished about 0840. Went on hold for the Beacon, that lasted about an hour before FedEx simply gave up the ghost and canceled my flight.
Went into SUB, contrary to popular opinion, was paid for SUB. Went home early, with another 3CHs.

Second one, was operating IND-SWF-EWR. Landed at SWF with a broken airplane. Mx said, yep, your'e broke. Easy fix once we get the part but I don't know if we have any of the system. Enjoy your day in SWF. Called CRS, informed them, they said we'll start working on revising your pairing. 15-20 minutes later, MOCC working on maybe getting a part from JFK...stay at the airport.
Umm, No. Going to the hotel. No actual FAR extension, no extra $$.

MEMA300

Ha ha. Like we have any say or can influence this in any way... go hugs your kids.

FXLAX

Did those that went to work at FedEx before it had these flexible work rules, pay, pension, vacation, etc just not do anything about those things? Or did they go to FedEx despite those things and when the opportunity arose to make it better, they did? I’m sick and tired of this type of argument. I see now that it’s a cultural thing here. People are so used to doing things the “same” way that they use all these irrelevant excuses.

As for previous airlines, many of them, including mine, had similar schedules as night hub turns. They called them by different names, stand ups, high speeds, CDO, etc. Many came from airlines that did international flying as well. And all of them do the same kind of day flying we do. It is a more valid comparison those people make with experience with both regulations than anyone who has only flown under 121 regs.

FXLAX

Two things to also keep in mind. First, the 2 hour extension always requires both pilot’s consent. Next, during IROPs, the FDP limit+30 minutes (unless both pilots agree to extend beyond) is the operational limit. So these numbers you’ve posted are in essence the IROP limit they can take us to, not the current blanket 16 hours regardless of show time or legs.

FXLAX

The point of it is that the government saw it fit to tell passenger airlines not to go to 16 hours because cargo pilots are somehow physiologically different than passenger pilots. That is the simplest way to look at it although it’s ignorant because by putting it that way you ignore the sleep science, preventative nature of the entire reg, the training requirement, the FRMP requirements, empowerment given to pilots, the human factors in calling in fatigue, etc. But for sake of argument, I’ll go with it for now. The REAL reason is money. If we crash, it costs the airlines less money than if a passenger airline crashes. That’s the excuse the OMB made after they were heavily lobbied. So according to the OMB the lives of cargo pilots are worth less than the lives of passengers and pilots on passenger airlines. This is the exact same excuse that is used when that same government makes different rules in ramp security, flight deck security, etc and now they are starting to attempt the same excuse with single pilot/remote pilot/autonomous pilot operations. We are either worth the same or we will continue to be the industry that gets carved out of everything, literally.

BlueMoon

Having all cargo carriers mandated under 117 can also help level the playing field with future competitors (ie Amazon’s regional airline model of contract carriers)

Noworkallplay

I could not agree more with many of your statements! Very well said. We do have a culture problem. The biggest thing I find insulting is guys/gals who have only flown for FedEx telling me how bad 117 is. My next question is, oh really what’s your experience outside FedEx? Oh none I came straight from the military or I was at airline xyz but it was prior to 117 being implemented. So how to you have anything to compare FDX to. Well my buddy tells me blah blah. Well have you actually flown at your buddies airline to get the full picture or are you taking “cherry picked” points? You can understand something fully until you live it. I have lived both sides. I have seen the same threatening talking points by management in regards to 117 when it was being proposed on the pax side. I saw how none of it came to fruition. In fact commutable pairings increased in some bases.

We must stop saying “ it’s always the way we have done it so it must be the best way” or we will lose not only on this issue but numerous issues going forward. Remember we have a contract coming up. If this group keeps doing business as usual we will get another sub par contract. Start thinking outside the box folks. Start thinking critically on your own and do your own studying and stop letting management do the studying for you. This thread has a few guys/gals just spewing half truths and conjecture points copied and pasted from managements most recent letter on PFC. It’s worrisome that my fellow pilots literally just believe them. It’s worrisome that management will play this same game in negotiations and these same people will just believe them.

A frozen pension is the way we have done it for the past 20 years so let’s keep doing it that way.