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ALPA MEC Phone Survey
Just took the phone survey. These jackholes are gonna give the pension away instead of working to improve it. Nobody does that outside of bankruptcy court.
Questions regarding retirement were leading and only gave you options crafted to make it look as if you support the pancake plan or whatever else they decide to do. I made some wry comment, refused the question and asked the surveyor if others were taking issue with it - she indicated that she'd heard that type of response plenty of times. My MEC apparently isn't interested in speaking for me. I'm gonna have to get a bag tag that says "My MEC speaks for my MEC" |
If that’s their plan, then they’re about to waste a lot of time and negotiating dollars only to find a massive NO vote for whatever turd they send our way. Hope you’re reading this DC and PM
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Well at least the bidpacks are getting better...
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Originally Posted by MEMA300
(Post 3219212)
Well at least the bidpacks are getting better...
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When they call me I'm just going to say I'm not answering any questions. Just tell the MEC I'm not voting for any contract that has the VB plan, PSPP, pancake plan in it. End of phone call.
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Originally Posted by Overnitefr8
(Post 3219820)
When they call me I'm just going to say I'm not answering any questions. Just tell the MEC I'm not voting for any contract that has the VB plan, PSPP, pancake plan in it. End of phone call.
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Poorly Disguised Bias
Originally Posted by Merle Haggard
(Post 3219078)
Just took the phone survey. These jackholes are gonna give the pension away instead of working to improve it. Nobody does that outside of bankruptcy court.
Questions regarding retirement were leading and only gave you options crafted to make it look as if you support the pancake plan or whatever else they decide to do. I made some wry comment, refused the question and asked the surveyor if others were taking issue with it - she indicated that she'd heard that type of response plenty of times. My MEC apparently isn't interested in speaking for me. There is a professional career field in research and an entire academic discipline devoted to research methods. One precept of the research craft acknowledges that it is actually rather difficult to remove bias from research survey questions. Extracting pure, unbiased data through research is a learned skill. Removing bias to achieve pure results is the ultimate goal within the discipline of research methods, as it relates to survey questions. Like all skills, it can be used for good or it can be used for bad (see Anakin Skywalker and the Force or OJ's legal team). Skilled researchers can disguise bias in their survey questions to achieve a desired result while the survey takers are none the wiser. Given that many on here and on the crew bus have already identified the bias in the questions given us, it is not a stretch of the imagination to conclude there is a desired result in play for the survey data. One could also conclude that skilled, professional researchers did not write the questions since the bias was so poorly disguised. Either we hired researchers that weren't so skilled at their craft or we had pilots write the questions thinking they were.
Originally Posted by FedEx Pilot
(Post 3219127)
If that’s their plan, then they’re about to waste a lot of time and negotiating dollars only to find a massive NO vote for whatever turd they send our way. Hope you’re reading this DC and PM
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Anything removing the pension will be a no vote from me...period. Hope they don’t waste money trying anything to the contrary.
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Originally Posted by Overnitefr8
(Post 3219820)
When they call me I'm just going to say I'm not answering any questions. Just tell the MEC I'm not voting for any contract that has the VB plan, PSPP, pancake plan in it. End of phone call.
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Originally Posted by JB130
(Post 3219899)
The previous online/email survey was worded in the same manner.
There is a professional career field in research and an entire academic discipline devoted to research methods. One precept of the research craft acknowledges that it is actually rather difficult to remove bias from research survey questions. Extracting pure, unbiased data through research is a learned skill. Removing bias to achieve pure results is the ultimate goal within the discipline of research methods, as it relates to survey questions. Like all skills, it can be used for good or it can be used for bad (see Anakin Skywalker and the Force or OJ's legal team). Skilled researchers can disguise bias in their survey questions to achieve a desired result while the survey takers are none the wiser. Given that many on here and on the crew bus have already identified the bias in the questions given us, it is not a stretch of the imagination to conclude there is a desired result in play for the survey data. One could also conclude that skilled, professional researchers did not write the questions since the bias was so poorly disguised. Either we hired researchers that weren't so skilled at their craft or we had pilots write the questions thinking they were. So true! That's going to be the net result if we are served pancakes....a waste of time that will delay our new contract and a waste of our dues money because any TA delivered with pancakes will be voted down. DC and PM, we're not as aloof as you think. |
The MEC is meeting this week. I love the quote from the FastRead: "Captain Chase gave an overview of this week’s agenda and how the MEC will work with the Negotiating Committee."
That is not the way it works, the MEC does not work for or with the NC, it's the other way around, or at least that is the way it is suppose to go. The MEC is suppose to set the goals and the NC is suppose to carry their water, but at least now they aren't hiding it anymore. Pancakes for all the pilots who complain on the crewbus but never do anything about the real issues. Also, I too took the survey. But before I did, I heard the block one rep say they would never ask us our choice for the improvements to the A plan and that nothing is off the table, I shuttered. Nothing is off the table? PBS, vacation, PSPP? An overwhelming number of pilots want the Final Average Earning raised to twice the IRS limit and use the 2% per year for 25 years. How tone deaf can they be. How much of our dues are they going to waist in this failed clinging to PSPP? It's an ugly baby. Get over it. How much time are we going to loose to this effort? How many pilots are going to retire at $130K because of this failed path? I don't look forward to listening to pilots complain on the crewbus about this situation, and then do nothing about the issue. Same song, different verse. |
Get ready to eat pancakes - call your Rep and ask - the Negotiating Committee is going down the pancake path with some minor changes but same plan overall
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Originally Posted by USMCFDX
(Post 3224699)
Get ready to eat pancakes - call your Rep and ask - the Negotiating Committee is going down the pancake path with some minor changes but same plan overall
I've already told the MEC that if they bring me pancakes, I'm sending them back. I ordered steak! Now fire the chef!!! |
I’ve told all three reps in my LEC...I don’t care how good it is, if it includes PSPP I’m an ABSOLUTE NO! Yes, I explained my reasoning, told them any PBS or increase in VTO would elicit exact same response. They were quick to point out they weren’t in favor of PBS. Stayed silent in regards to PSPP. PM and a few select others are somehow going to ram this down all our throats while saying we’re not sticking together for voicing the exact same displeasure over it we’ve had since the start and throughout their hard sell indoctrination.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by NewOldGuy
(Post 3224869)
I’ve told all three reps in my LEC...I don’t care how good it is, if it includes PSPP I’m an ABSOLUTE NO! Yes, I explained my reasoning, told them any PBS or increase in VTO would elicit exact same response. They were quick to point out they weren’t in favor of PBS. Stayed silent in regards to PSPP. PM and a few select others are somehow going to ram this down all our throats while saying we’re not sticking together for voicing the exact same displeasure over it we’ve had since the start and throughout their hard sell indoctrination.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
I’m a No obviously...but if you think they’re not gonna hard sell it and “pretend” it’s the best we can do, and “warn” everyone they should vote yes because it’s as good as it’ll get and they’re hurting themselves by delaying then you’ve got blinders on. So yes, I do thing it’s gonna get rammed because they only have to scare 51%. Hell, they can waive a single 4-5% pay raise in the air and almost get 51 regardless of what else is in the contract.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
I know it’s anecdotal, but I can’t think of a single captain I’ve flown with that is willing to vote yes on a pancake contract. I have several FO friends in that same boat. I think anything with pancakes will be a resounding no. I’ll live under the current contract until that turd pancake plan goes away. It makes my life easy because I won’t have to study any other changes before I vote no.
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Originally Posted by Stan446
(Post 3224915)
Right now the current contract is fine except for a few areas and pay raises.
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Originally Posted by Fr8Master
(Post 3225016)
I know it’s anecdotal, but I can’t think of a single captain I’ve flown with that is willing to vote yes on a pancake contract. I have several FO friends in that same boat. I think anything with pancakes will be a resounding no. I’ll live under the current contract until that turd pancake plan goes away. It makes my life easy because I won’t have to study any other changes before I vote no.
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Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 3225021)
I agree with you except for this part. I feel your expectations are way too low!
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Originally Posted by Stan446
(Post 3225091)
You don't know what my expectations are.
I’m referring to the part where you wrote, “Right now the current contract is fine except for a few areas and pay raises.” Personally, there are MANY parts of the contract that I want to see improved, not just a few areas and pay raises. I’m talking about dozens of items. But this sentiment seems to be just me, as the MEC has already indicated it’s going to be a focused negotiation instead. |
Yep - focused on pancakes
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Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 3225104)
I’m referring to the part where you wrote, “Right now the current contract is fine except for a few areas and pay raises.”
Personally, there are MANY parts of the contract that I want to see improved, not just a few areas and pay raises. I’m talking about dozens of items. But this sentiment seems to be just me, as the MEC has already indicated it’s going to be a focused negotiation instead. Care to list the dozens on items? Maybe others would agree with some/most/all of them. |
Shortly after the pancake plan was introduced to the crew force, I happened to be seated next to a corporate finance adviser on a deadhead flight. She advises companies on how to restructure their pension plans, and was surprised to hear that our union was looking to ditch the current pension. She said you NEVER give up a defined benefit plan. She thought we were crazy for even contemplating it.
Has anyone thought about starting an informal survey on here, or JF since it’s invite only, to get a true idea of where the numbers are? |
Originally Posted by oldTOAD
(Post 3225286)
Has anyone thought about starting an informal survey on here, or JF since it’s invite only, to get a true idea of where the numbers are?
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Since ALPA won’t ask directly, maybe we should do it for them.
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ALPA MEC Phone Survey
Originally Posted by pinseeker
(Post 3225130)
Care to list the dozens on items? Maybe others would agree with some/most/all of them.
It’s a list of about 60 items in about 10 different chapters of the contract. I’ve included all of them in the survey. I prefer not to “negotiate” in public. But suffice it to say, they are items that include things that many of us have groaned about, items I’ve personally run into that could use improvement, items from previous airline that could make it better here, items that Ive heard from other pilots here, items that are industry leading from other airlines, and novel items. None of them include any of our sacred cows. Hopefully they’ve some of them get implemented. |
I'm on keto, can't do Pancakes, where's the beef?
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I suggest each and every one of us and every one we can motivate to call our reps and ask them how they voted today. DID YOU VOTE FOR OR AGAINST PSPP? What was the final vote and who did vote for it.
Then start the recalls as needed, or wait until its too late AGAIN and be the laughing stocks again. Giving away your pension will be called getting FDX MEC'd. But hey, you will get pancakes, very tiny pancakes, heck, some will have to be bought up just to get to the 1999 numbers, but who cares, it's going to be great, eventually. |
With the change of system form coming (more than 2 sorts a day at multiple hub) sec 25 and 12 need serious revisions unless you want to be doing pax airline type flying on backside of clock. The soft parameters are useless. Go look at your buddies daily work schedule at a major. 2-3 legs a day in 9-12 hrs of duty.
A-plan & B-plan enhancements only. If Alpa Keep pushing this pancake BS we need to look at alternatives in leadership. other than pay rates whats really noticeably improved in last few contracts? btw read fine print next contract they will want definition of a trip changed or removed and thats a bad thing. |
Originally Posted by MEMA300
(Post 3225723)
btw read fine print next contract they will want definition of a trip changed or removed and thats a bad thing.
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If we go to a rolling sort or more than 2 sorts in calendar day CBA 4.F.2.B. is very restrictive from an efficiency standpoint. They are going to push to get us to do multiple turns thru a hub per duty period for the same pay we are getting currently.
The trip definition has already been changed pretty bad with the 12.A.6 allowance. You can now pick up a stby and if no trip is assiged in 5hrs they can put you in crew rest in domicile (without hotel) to fly a later leg... |
Originally Posted by MEMA300
(Post 3226381)
If we go to a rolling sort or more than 2 sorts in calendar day CBA 4.F.2.B. is very restrictive from an efficiency standpoint. They are going to push to get us to do multiple turns thru a hub per duty period for the same pay we are getting currently.
The trip definition has already been changed pretty bad with the 12.A.6 allowance. You can now pick up a stby and if no trip is assiged in 5hrs they can put you in crew rest in domicile (without hotel) to fly a later leg... It sounded like you were saying they can make us fly passenger type schedules, ie multiple turns. But this post seems like you are saying that they cannot make us do multiple turns per duty period per the 4F2b. What am I getting wrong? |
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