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Quote:

Originally Posted by jetlaggy (Post 3375751)

How do you think a mediator would view this action?

It's been done many times in the past - just not here. The mediator would probably view it as a very solid barometer of just how far apart the two parties are.

I'm not sure what you think the "gotcha" is. It is normal for MEC's to recommend up or down on the vote - ours only ever recommends up though so nobody at this place knows that there's another option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightflyer (Post 3375774)

If they MEC wants to show some resolve, they can give the 7 day notice for the jumpseat MOU.

The company will have a difficult time operating without it, and we might be able to get something back for it.

That is a false statement. Read business necessity jumpseat language in the CBA. They used this in HKG prior to the travel MOU. They just simply made everyone a reserve and built the trips outside the bidpack per the CBA. They then just assigned them to everyone who was on reserve. Problem solved. In the mean time all pilots in HKG lost the ability to bid a line and the days they wanted to work. A lot of the gains from the travel MOU would also be lost such as 100% bank value and rental car ability.

Let’s start with getting everybody just flying the contract. That alone would get them to the bargaining table. This is a simple game of pressure and we are losing because of pilot greed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwri10s (Post 3375398)

It does not matter what the company "wants" or is "against". All that matters is what we demand and "earn" through steadfast arm and arm bargaining. If we demanded an A plan improvement we would get it. No doubt..

This is just crazy talk. There is leverage by the crew force, just as there is leverage by the company. The union can't offer individuals sweet deals like the company can, the union can't call out individuals, nor even properly identify them. The company speaks with a unified voice with a centralized mission from a small group who answers to very few. The company supports, via numerous means, a political apparatus that is increasing hostile to organized labor, and labor in general, has rewarded the very people who work against their interests by re electing them. They in turn have put judges on the courts and in organizations that portend to balance the wants and needs of labor vs industry while actively underminding your rights to negotiate a fair and just working aggreement.

Not trying to suggest there is no hope, but the process is not tilted in the favor of this or any organized labor group. The UPS pilots, for all their bravado, have a huge organized group standing right behind them, offering if nothing else, a sense of unity and purpose in dealing with their employer. Improvements will be made on contract 2015, just be realistic about what one is up against. Internal back biting and public displays of disunity only help one side. I believe, as many have suggested, that the company has trolls on this board, who sole purpose is to create havoc and undermine unity. Just another tool in the company toolbox.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noworkallplay (Post 3375803)

If this is true, tell me why the company has not cancelled the MOU themselves?

There must be something in it for them.

Also, putting everyone on reserve would be an extremely effective unifying event, wouldn't it?

Kind of like the "optimizer", oh wait, you weren't here for that one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noworkallplay (Post 3375492)

I also don't remember any mention of the pspp. As for the vacation section, if I remember correctly from a previous pub, management wanted to change cancellation language and we got some change in the sellback provision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitch (Post 3375666)

The pilot shortage is peaking.

On a pilot shortage, I don't think it'll peak until mainline passenger airlines are back to pre-covid ASMs. I think right now they are about 75%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunnysky (Post 3374991)

Listened to PUB call this week and talked to my rep and a few others after. My takeaways:

- no movement on retirement whatsoever - Company still wants bankruptcy era retirement plan, close our pension and we want the PSPP
- no new sections closed and only real movement was on section 12, hours of service - where Pat May said he was successful mostly (not exact quote but similar) in decreasing the amount of ask the Company wanted in this area. I wasn't sure what this means and no one asked any questions. Did we get anything? Are we giving in to some company requests to make things worse for pilots?
- New MEC chairman and vice chairman trying out a new ALPA app or something with better communications - not sure what this meant either
- no more negotiating sessions this month. There are two scheduled for March
- Pat and Rich (the two members of the negotiating team on the call) felt we were still on track for a May 2022 TA. If that changes then they will let the MEC know. They are doing everything they can to keep negotiations short. Timeline is important but they would not sacrifice our desires for a timely contract.
- There are something like 18 different pilot unions in negotiations right now
- We have TAs in section 5 except for per diem, section 26, data (not sure what that all involves, I don' think we opened that), and section 7, vacation.
- we lost a strong person in contract enforcement recently and as a result have not had the best responses to DARTs. The MEC Chairman is looking to restart up a team staffed with pilots that could help on hours outside of normal but pilots helping could not talk with the company

The meeting was short. Not very many questions.

The timeline seems odd to me and not sure how Pat and Rich can honestly believe we can still get a contract by May2022. This seems a bit odd to me as we have almost nothing complete yet and have made no advancement on retirement at all. Retirement is by far the biggest section.

In my talking with reps and other rumors I believe section 5 has very little improvements and that section 7, vacation is actually concessionary. I'm not sure how that happened since everyone I know doesn't want anyone to mess with vacation at all. And there's no movement on retirement at all. I suspect Pat felt like he had to give back on section 7 based on the lack of leverage he has in the field - everyone just flying as much AVA as they can.

Overall it doesn't seem good to me. We probably have a long way to go. The only real big sections were pay rates, which we haven't even discussed, and retirement, which there is no progress on.

Overall, I wasn't as pessimistic as you are.

From my memory, they talked about getting management to back off of their reverse 4a2b proposal. NC was able to reduce expense report issues by reducing the amount of receipts required and requiring a timeframe to fix issues before payroll deduction. Hours of service is down to one open item. If I guessed, it probably deals with getting more realistic rest opportunities. Deadheading still has substantial differences with three open items still remaining, one of them being a large item. As for scope, they received no counter. NC has proposed some belly freight language and trying to make it more expensive for management to wet lease. Retirement, as you said, bankruptcy era, from before current language that has enhancements such as cap over cap and tax advantaged health accounts. Also, management asked to renegotiate covid MOUs so NC is asking to make travel bank changes permanent. Wet lease payments being calculated. And no more handshake deals for instructors. Oh and TPE hotel still sucks. The hotel is mandated by government and other airlines have to stay there as well. But should see improvements in meals. That's what I remember.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FXLAX (Post 3375858)

I remember the same as you. This was his first post and he definitely formulated a different view compared to what I heard. The money fight will happen in the next two months once none large money items are TAd. This is the time we need the entire pilot group to fly the contract. Currently we just a few and numerous acting as subcontractors.

The Chairman also said clearly draft/ava is our choice and the union will defend all pilots who choose not to partake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noworkallplay (Post 3374959)

I talked with my rep this week and I quote “we do not have a PSPP plan on the table”. The PSPP was dead a few years ago. He was clear they are attempting to increase the FAE and also looking at other qualified pension plans. A flat dollar formula like UPS has is another method that comes to mind.

I believe you may have misinterpreted what the rep said. As far as retirement goes, ALL options are on the table.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightflyer (Post 3375831)

Easy answer STABILITY. Stability though also for the pilots who want to actually bid trips/days of work and not be reserves when they are 50% or higher in base. It benefits both sides is the point. If we pulled out they would still move the freight mark my words. So what would you achieve? Nothing. We have most of our pilots who would jump for joy to snag them at draft/ava and we wouldn't achieve a darn thing like whats going on now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noworkallplay (Post 3375492)

I was on the call also. I did not hear anything about the PSPP. So when was that said? I have also talked to my rep and the things it appears we got on vacation are some small gains. NOT CONCESSIONS. The union didn't open that section, the company did. I can certainly guarantee the company's initial position on that section wasn't to give us gains either small or large. I am sure it was to reduce our vacation by accrual time or value. So if we beat that back that is a win. I would have been happy with current book, so if we got some slight improvements all the better.

Looking at the openers document for section 5 it appears everything we asked for in that section is fairly vanilla, so I would assume that section was easy to negotiate. Per diem is still open in that section as Pat said due to inflation and monetary items generally happen at the end.

As for the timeline it seems achievable to me. If you get the work rules done in the next two bargaining session in march then all you are left with is retirement and pay. That's two months to hash that out. I think this is what they said in regards to the timeline still being achievable. At least that was my takeaway.

In the end we wont see the company move at all until our pilot group grows a pair. Currently most pilots I fly with do lots of extra. This will incentivize the company to stall on monetary pieces. We will get what we are willing to fight for. Currently most of our pilots are not doing anything to help achieve a good contract within a 1 year timeline. Most are doing max draft/AVA and vacation buy back gets filled every month. So what does that say to you? If I was the company I wouldn't move on retirement either until I had to. As of now our pilot groups behavior says we are ok with the current contract and retirement.

You're right about the PSPP - I think Pat said something like we "want improvements in the defined benefit plan and the Company wants a bankruptcy era pension" - I took that to mean the PSPP since that is what we have been bargaining but maybe that's changed.

On the vacation section - you might need to call back your rep and ask specifically "was there anything considered concessionary in that section?". I wish I would have asked that on the call the otehr day - next call I hope to. Could be wrong but it's been whispered by more than one person.

Not sure how you think the timeline is really still possible my May. We've been at it for 10 months now and had zero movement on retirement and it is, by far, the biggest section we are asking for. Maybe it'll all come together in the next few months but my reading shows that very little actually happens during a session - no "work until we get this section done" - the sections that have been TA'd are pretty minor and would appear to have little positive for pilots. We have two sessions in March, not sure how many in April or May but best case, maybe we have 6 more sessions before the protocol timeline is done? There is still quite a bit more than work rules to be done. We still have Deadheading which is always long and hard and System Board of Adjustment, in addition to pay rates, retirement and the three work rule sections. That's the meat of it and I didn't hear anything on the call that made it sound like there was any movement on those sections at all. What did you hear?