Back End Deviation Ridiculousness
 

I understand once you deviate, you can't un-deviate.... Even on a trip revision? For example, BEDH out of IND. Original pairing has airline on DL IND-ATL-MEM. New revision. Trip now ends in BWI. New BEDH now BWI-ATL-MEM. Already deviated original trip prior to revision. New trip still shows deviation on second leg, ATL-MEM. Same exact flight from ATL-MEM. Called to say no longer want to deviate. Can't get home from BWI, but could've from IND. Told you can't un-deviate. Doesn't matter that it was a trip revision after you deviated. Same second leg means you are still deviated. Called duty officer, who spoke with manager in scheduling. Same response. Can't un-deviate. Go to sleep. Wake up to revision #2. Now end in TYS, spend the night, and BEDH on day off, you guessed it, TYS-ATL-MEM. Same segment from ATL-MEM, but now a day later (in day off), and a different time of day. Trip still shows deviated on second leg. Filed an insite and a DART. DART comes back agreeing with company. Can't un-deviate....even though trip revised twice, ending in a different location, on a different day. As long as any leg segment remains the same on your airline back to base, I guess they say you're on your own. Couldn't find anything in the contract or anywhere else actually stating on trip revisions you get option to deviate again or not, on Back End..... Insite comes back saying, huh, looks like a glitch, you should have had the deviation removed.... So which is it? Do you never get the chance to deviate again, or do you? Anyone with previous experience and anything in black and white on the rules, or where to find it? They require you to deviate 8 hours prior on domestic, but then can do whatever they want to you and you have no recourse? I understand guys not deviating on back ends, and just cancelling ticket, but I'm just trying to find out what actually is written in stone.

get the union lawyers involved with this at once. we cannot allow the company to establish precedent here. like chastain in nascar the company lawyers unlocked a new move. good for them. bad for us, because in this analogy we are the wall!

Why would you deviate prior to landing at your final destination in the first place? I never do until I know I made my deviation flight, for this exact reason. You are deviating from the trip not a specific leg was always my understanding. This is why the deviation requirement on a back and deadhead is not near as restrictive as the time required on a front end deadhead. I am not saying I agree with the outcome but don’t understand why an individual would deviate so early on the backend of a trip.

Never back end deviate.

I was at my final destination. They revised me and changed my final destination, twic, and the first one happened right after I deviated about to jumpseat home, while still on duty. I also get deviating from a trip, not leg specific. My trip was revised. The new trip wasn’t what I deviated. What stops the company from completely throwing out every trip and revising them to their liking if there is never any recourse. I know the argument about never deviating on back end. I’ve also heard IR reports get generated when you deviate less than 8 hours and call to deviate, such as boarding your flight home and making a call. Not sure if that’s true or not? Also, not every trip ends with legal rest followed by an airline. Some airline within a couple of hours of landing all in the same duty period. I’ve been burned when I was positioning to a trip and the other crew member never deviated, just left. I got to where I was going, and company said they couldn’t find the other crew member. They tried to revise that person but they took off without deviating. Not sure if anything came of it or not? Contract says 8 hours. I’m not saying to deviate or not deviate, just trying to see if there is something in writing saying once revised, whether it’s front, mid or back end, deviation is removed?

not the best advice in the current environment

All good points.

Softest union in the business. CE is worthless. Obviously there is established president un-deviating pilots when revised. They’re violating status quo AGAIN.

If you haven’t noticed by now, we’re at war for our quality of life.

which president is that? Obama?

It didn’t apply in this case, but internationally a pilot shall notify the company 60 hrs prior to showtime - 8.C.1.h.i.

That is an instance where you might need to deviate prior to landing at your final destination.

I've deviated about a dozen times prior to an international deadhead with several hours notice and never heard anything from anyone about it. what if any are the ramification of an IR report?

Yes.

I almost never even deviate. One of the original Captains I flew with at FX said “never deviate until you are taxing out on your deviation flight”.

Please reference us to the language that could be grieved. What language in the contract has ever allowed us to cancel a deviation? None exists to my knowledge. Just because a few people get away with something doesn’t make it status quo.

I would spend some time on google researching what a status quo violation is under the RLA. This definitely isn’t one when we have never been allowed to cancel a deviation.

Positive rate this week just announced another grievance won by the union regarding rental car deviation funds. Looking at the grievance list on union web page seems to prove they win much more than they lost.

CE has helped me in numerous situations. Most recently getting RAT pay on a trip the company attempted to say was a revision.

I am curious to hear what you would do different. File a bunch of frivolous grievances that get laughed at by an arbitrator. This weakens a union’s position in further arbitrations. Would you file a frivolous status quo violation with the NMB and get laughed out of the hearing? Once again weakening the union’s position in further cases.

When I did committee work in a previous life at another legacy we had this same discussion with uneducated pilots who didn’t even understand the definition of the words they used or case law.

Honest question. If you think you know more than those doing the jobs why don’t you volunteer? I am sure the attorney’s and committee volunteers with years of experience would be more than happy to hear about all your experience in this area.

I have seen many unions in my career. This one has by far produced the best product. Case in point is why we all wanted to come to FDX. Pay, retirement, work rules, vacation to name a few. None of my bros at other properties have what we have in total or even come close.

My apologies for impeding on your false information campaign. Or was that just an opinion piece?

I thought there used to be a way to undeviate via the web page that you deviated on, to uncheck the boxes. It was not obvious nor well known by the crew force. Worth taking a look at.

You "used to" be able to do a lot of things. Now if it is not written in the contract in grievance proof language, no soup for you.

True, but this wasn’t something contractual. You just had to select the right page and uncheck the boxes in a less than obvious way. Then again, when the company figures out the workarounds, those options magically disappear.

Back End Deviation Ridiculousness
 

Just want to point out that this is not necessarily the most valid way of measuring the success of a pilot union. For example, at the regional airline level, there have been many strong pilot unions that have achieved a “relatively” good contract. But it’s relative to other regionals. Obviously they will never compare to a legacy. But even within the same category, it may not be the most valid way of measuring success. For example, FedEx wasn’t as adversely economically affected by 9/11 as passenger airliners. So you can’t fault delta pilots (as one example) for their management seeking bankruptcy protection and the loss of negotiating leverage that gives them.

Basically, a pilot union is only as successful in producing contract gains (or minimizing losses) for the economic leverage they currently have. Given a stronger union, they would produce better or more gains than a weaker union under the same economic conditions at that same company at that time.

I know for 100% sure that I have had to re-deviate in the past when my trip has been revised. This situation is not canceling a deviation. When the trip is revise the original deviation should disappear. The original trip no longer exists so therefore any deviation associated with it no longer exists. You then have another opportunity to choose whether to deviate the new trip.

I do not have a contract reference for this but I had a trip in the last year that was revised multiple times and each time I had to re-deviate the back end.

+1. Back in July I had an illegal call out…. CRS called it a courtesy call.. But they were trying to notify me early for a B reserve assignment that wasn’t legal if the called at Noon. I sent a Dart and called and left messages with CE twice. To this day I have never heard a word….. BTW I have been here nearly 20 years so I know the Mickey Mouse games they try! And this was BS. Screenshot the voice mail and again not a word from the Union

DO NOT answer your phone unless you are obligated to do so. No reason to be on reserve more than required by the contract.

yea. Total bs. But 20 years in the game, and you answered the phone early? Or did they try and use the voicemail to say they gave you the assignment?

I didn’t answer…. They left a voicemail.. But the fact they called the day before and not until after noon on the next B reserve day was BS…. It was from an unknown number to boot.. But ya, don’t ever answer when not required…. The result when they did call was the had to revise the pairing to get me on deck earlier and got rid of the hub turn. Tried the same thing about 2 years ago I had to get supervisor involved….

Just curious, how would the B reserve assignment been illegal if they had waited until noon on the day of the trip to assign it? Doesn't the call out period for B reserve start at noon?

Read his original post APCers

It appears it is because he had the same deadhead from ATL-MEM on same airline, date and time even on his revised pairing. The only thing that changed was the first leg and poster said it allowed him to redeviate from that leg bc it was new. It sucks but the last leg was not revised and he/she had already deviated that original leg that was still the same.

Posters narrative below

“For example, BEDH out of IND. Original pairing has airline on DL IND-ATL-MEM. New revision. Trip now ends in BWI. New BEDH now BWI-ATL-MEM. Already deviated original trip prior to revision. New trip still shows deviation on second leg, ATL-MEM. Same exact flight from ATL-MEM.”

Keep reading. The OP said they did the same thing when the trip was revised 24 hours later. You might be able to make a case for the same day (but past precedent says it should have been a new deviation opportunity), but once the trip was revised to the next day, the OP should have been able to deviate on both legs again.

My apologies I missed the second part. Something seems amiss on the second revision and the inability to have that original DHD reinstated. I would be interested to read the INSITE and DART response details.

In both cases, the trip had an extremely late show time (1830ish) to a hub city, followed by a hub turn and getting KXYZ around sunrise. Both exceeded 16 hour duty day if called out at noon. But they make a sneaky “courtesy” call the day prior and you’re legally rested to showtime.

Ok, still not following. Why would they have to call you at noon for a trip that showed at 1830(ish) local? They could also just assign you the trip in VIPS and release you until show. Both provide you with legal rest. So why would the trip be illegal for a B period reserve?

I will also add that there are good examples in which you would want Crew Scheduling to call you outside of the “required notification period”. It may be to one’s advantage if they are commuting to the first day of reserve to take the notification of a front end deadhead assignment on day one and be able to deviate direct to the assignment. The contract just states when you are required to pick up the phone call.

Back End Deviation Ridiculousness
 

For some reason these unsolicited voicemails always sound garbled. A voicemail is not a legal notification in this instance.


Reserve availability isn’t rest. And what if you don’t check VIPS? I never did when I was on reserve.

Yeah, I get that. But he said they called the day before. If they called the day before, ie Tuesday for a Wednesday trip, wouldn't there have been enough time to notify him and release him for a legal rest? There just seems to be some additional information that isn't there.

DART Response: Thank you for submitting a DART. Unfortunately once you deviate in the system, you are not able to undo the deviation. I realize your travel date has passed, so my apologies for the late response. I hope this response can help for future planning.

Not sure I should post the Insite response since it is from the company, but basically said original deviation should have gone away. To me, when they revise your trip, it is no longer your original trip. Deviate or not, should be treated as a new trip, but that's just my opinion.

Back End Deviation Ridiculousness
 

Ok, but still. A VIPs notification is not a legal notification if you never check it. And you shouldn’t if one is on reserve.

I would re-engage on the DART report. That response appears they didn’t realize your DHD was moved to a different day.

They called me on a day off for a trip the next day that exceeded 16 hour duty unless I answered the phone and was released to showtime. The voicemail said it was a courtesy call and if I could log in and acknowledge…. Since when does an assignment get a courtesy call on a day off?

My time off on a day off is my time…. R24 is the only reserve where they can call on a day off before starting a block. Which I honestly think is BS but that ship has sailed..

Ahh, so it was the day before you started your block of reserve. Yeah, an attempt by CRS to get you to answer your phone and notify you so that you would be released until show. While it is not in the spirit of the notification process, it isn't a violation of the contract either. That is why it is important that we all know what we are required to do per the contract. Glad you didn't answer or acknowledge the VIPS notification. They were doing their best to fill a trip. You did what you were required to do. Surprised they didn't try to give it to an R24 pilot. Probably had them all in hotel standby!:rolleyes:

haha. As soon as I read R24, without seeing the line underneath, I thought the same.

I disagree.. I was not in the notification period yet they tried to call me to notify me of an assignment. Just because they used the words “courtesy call” doesn’t change the intent.

What are you disagreeing with? Do you think this was a contract violation? If so, then what section did they violate? The contract only states when you have to be available for notification, it doesn't restrict the company from attempting to notify you earlier.