So 'just really that dense' is your answer...got it.

Ignored? No.
Read what you had to say ("Nothing to see here, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!") and not convinced? Yep.

Which part of we've lost faith in BOTH "sides" of this union do you not get? 5 years of negotiating with this company who 'values our contributions', gives 'thanks for saving the world', gives 'thanks for all you do', etc. while expecting us to work at a 30%+ discount, abusing the outdated RLA, and cooking the books to force 4A2B/C while drafting/extending/revising without constraint. A TA so lacking even a busted union (loose collection of ICs) voted it down fairly decisively. At least 3 coups or regime changes in the MEC/NC. All while our real enemy barely disguises it's derision at our disfunction.

So I'll repeat, this time without the name calling that seems to offend you:
What you and others really don't seem to get is that the more you deflect and tell us the names don't matter, the less trust we have in the system. Which is too bad, because FWIW I like the FACT team idea, and like the presumably-unbiased and lack of used-car-salesman sales-pitches format.

Well thank goodness TC is still trying to prolong this process even in retirement. I can't think of a single person who has cost me more money in my career. Between him and the "brain trust" with a free chatGPT subscription, who needs any facts or "FACTS".

I hope people see that this is a coordinated NEVER TA attack thats being implemented by the wounded feelings of yesterday's Fedex ALPA legends.

Its time to turn the page on TA2021 and TA2023 and say enough is enough. Unless you want another MEC coup that turns into a NC meltdown, more RECALLS and then ULTIMATELY the NEW MEC AND NC that promises to beat Delta Rates, Lay flat 1st class seats for any leg over 1 hour, Hot meal catering on every segment AND flight attendants to serve the thermos ROAR!

WAKE UP CALL IN THE SLEEP ROOM!!!! There isn't even a TA to discuss and the WAR DRUMS are beating. Why would that be? Cause our pilot group is fooked. Vote for the TA that represents you AND remember the close to $150,000 you're never going to get back by letting this drag on for FIVE YEARS!!!! Make it STOP.

-Bubs

Two years ago, today, was the infamous "proffer of arbitration".

"We're gonna get in and get out!"

How about this?
 

These concessions they/you now call "FACTS" will bring us no closer to a deal. Bro you keep running your mouth without acknowledging how we got here. Concessions aren't ok when you need to spend another 20+ years here. I wish you retirement on contract 2015 for such a ridiculously selfish stance. Refer to my previous post where I said to grow a pair. It's still relevant.

You mean where people with self respect rejected the most one sided deal in airline history? Was a great day! And it's funny watching people like you pine over the fallout from the stupid sht that PM and his chums put in front of us. Get bent.

BirdEater ur a drama queen. TA23 barely failed. And that deal hardly changed the majority of the existing contract. So, knowing the contract was the 2015 existing contract when you came to FedEx. AND you must have been 100% OK with that one sided deal that you assumed was "hitting the lottery" by coming to FedEx.

You continue to miss my point and to understand there are NO CONCESSIONS to things you NEVER HAD in the first place. You're one of these guys saying HOLIDAY PAY, PROFIT SHARING, 19% 401K why not? DELTA HAS IT!!! We're not getting these! its a concession!!! WE NEVER had these things. If there was a time to improve things it was May 2021. Oh, Bubs is rolling over. He wont fight. Fight what? Its been 5 years and we've been chasing our tails seeing as the company has a fixed cost for the greedy pilots.

And again, BirdMan, the TA isn't even done. Ive seen guys making Pro's and Con's lists (theyre all NEVER TA Council 22 bobbleheads BTW) and they've got it dead to rights that this TA is DOA. Except 1/2 things they're against were TA'd by the savior and almighty profit JG. Who had 2 years to bring the TA to the promised land but he got ICED. Thanks for 0.0.

Wake up BirdMan! Yeah, this TA isn't going to solve everything but that ship sailed 5 years ago. I come to work for money. And right now 5 years on 2015 pay rates is kicking me in the nether region. Sorry to bring you to the reality of Earth 1.

-Bubs

I'll try to say this gently so I don't upset such a delicate flower.

You obviously didn't read what I said because I didn't say any of the things you suggested. I asked if there had been any bad information put out yet and whether or not you tried to get a meeting with a fact team member. The "fact" that you won't answer proves that you just want to stir the pot.

You say that you don't care who is on other committees. So, you don't care who is setting our strategic goals and policies if we are ever released to self help? You don't care who is on the P2P team who is responsible for providing the crew force with information and one of the committees that was used to build the fact team? Go ahead and throw a tantrum and continue to try to divide this crew force. It seems like you might be a company plant trying to get a few more years out of contract 2015.

What concessions? The only concessions that have been published were negotiated by JG and supported by the TC4. You probably don't see them as concessions, because you are happy to sell back 60% of your vacation. Maybe you are unhappy that the union has to agree to raise it to 100% vacation buy back.

Vacation sell back …..much ado about nothing
 

Currently you can sell back 100% of your vacation…..so the jump from 60% at end of year to 100% is not a hill worth worrying about. Plenty of people have done it since the 2015 contract was signed . It is not hard to do - you just have to invest more time then the automatic end of the year buyback.

No, there is no 100% vacation buy back in the contract.

If you are referring to when the company solicits for pilots to sell back their vacation, that is a different story. First, the company doesn't publish how many vacation slots they are buying back. Next, voluntary vacation sell back goes in seniority order, but the company can elect to buy back an instructors vacation over a senior line pilot in the same seat. Finally, there is no guarantee that the company will buy back vacation in any month. So saying that you can sell back 100% of your vacation isn't true for probably 90%+ of the crew force.

90%+ of the crew force is probably limited to the current 40% end of year buyback. The new TA allows the company to arbitrarily increase that by 50%. Talk about handing them another manning manipulation tool.

You are correct. There is no 100% vacation buyback in the contract. The ability to get to sell back of 100% can be done….not that hard. Several different ways to do it. One easy example is to bid ALL of you vacation in one month (say Feb)…..*poof* 100% paid. There are other ways as well. My point being no reason to hyperventilate about something we can already do.

If you bid all of your vacation in a month and then bid a VTO, yes, you can get paid for all of that vacation that month. That counts against your BLG. If that amount is high enough that adding any trips would put you above the max BLG that month, you won't get any trips on your line. In that instance, you are using your vacation, not selling it back. Yes, you can decide to reduce your vacation footprint and then pick up trips, but you still haven't sold back any vacation. There is a difference between using your vacation and selling it back. If you are a regular line holder or reserve line holder, you only get paid for the work days you remove. The rest will remain in your bank until the end of the year subject to the 40% limit or used on a VTO later in the year. You also have to be able to hold vacation every week in that month. So, how else can a pilot easily sell back 100% of their vacation, because what you described isn't selling 100% back.

I'm not saying this is a reason to vote no, but it may have the same effect that the TC4 say that the student line agreement may have.

I think the details really aren’t that important on how to get paid for 100% of your vacation…..unless of course you’re one of “those guys”….I just think the amount of elevation that ensued was disproportionate to the actual issue. In any given year I could work it out so that I get paid 100% of my vacation…..and still work each month if I elected to.

Students lines…..another issue where the panic doesn’t level with reality. Is it a concession-indeed. But that’s how negotiations work. We get some, we give some…..I’ve yet to see a contract where we got to publish our demands and we simply litigated the things we want. How far down the seniority list do you think you would have to go offering pilots 125% this month instead of 100%…..my guess is not very far. I can hear the “Industry Standard” argument already….fully understand it.

Any contract negotiated between two parties involves some concessions…..we just need to decide if the gains are worth the concessions. Is it reasonable to assume a contract with pay below our peers with more concessions will pass…I don’t believe it will.

Would a contract that pays commensurate to our peers….which contains the above concessions pass. Well I guess that’s where we all have to weigh it out n vote on it.

Respectfully submitted. Ape

Ape using common sense on APC is going to get thrashed.

But before JustInFacts gets crazy and comes at him I'm going to step up and say: At this point the TA comes down to SHOW ME THE MONEY!

GOT SCOPE? -NOPE- The company does what it wants. Student Lines? Like 5 people will be bothered by this.

Got 5 Years on a 2015 pay rate in a 30% inflationary consumer economy? -YUP-

Let's vote NO and show them we've got FIGHT!!!! 5 More Years! 5 More Years! 2015 pay rates FOR LIFE!!!

-Bubs

And I can predict the ones who would jump on it!

(Although, I can't see their calendars)

Two things working against your argument. The first is that in December of 2022 the pilots at Delta reached a TA that set the standard for pay and QOL. One major statement caught the attention of those paying attention, “NO CONCESSIONS.” They did not give up a single QOL item for the pay rates in that agreement. The second fact that I think many take issue with here is that the very work rules that were touted as benefits to seniority, like no student lines, and that were enjoyed for decades by pilots nearing retirement, are the work rules we are being told by that same group of pilots “don’t matter.” For decades ALPA has slowly given away work rules in exchange for pay rates while doing nothing to improve the A plan. It’s a lie to say that retirement hasn’t improved since 1999 as the B plan has gradually increased. All that to be said, amazing that suddenly when faced with impending retirement we are told that job protection, work rules, and pay are all things that don’t matter and we should be focused only on retirement. Why didn’t you guys decide to do that 20 years ago? Makes little or no sense to me.

For the record, student lines are industry average at most carriers now in some form or fashion. So is premium pay getting 200%-300%. We are giving up industry leading for less than market value.

What I have seen so far does not tip my vote one way or another. I’ll look at the total value of the deal, once we see it, and if it meets the threshold to get my yes then I’ll vote yes. I didn’t want to vote no on the TA in 2023. I didn’t feel like I had a choice because the deal was so bad.

So far I’ve seen some strike outs, a few solid doubles, and a single or two. Waiting for 1, 3, and 28 to be shown and then we will see. 3 better be a solid home run. That would mean 3 must be industry pay rates with a snap up since the missteps of ALPA has cost us an entire negotiating cycle.

If that doesn't sum it up I don’t know what does.

I wanted to retire at FDX but after seeing that TA I knew it was going to be a multi-decade battle that we’d never win.

What guys fail to acknowledge is the Delta contract opened as COVID slammed them. If COVID furloughed 3,000-4,000 pilots from EVERY legacy there would be NO debate on TA23. It would been monumental gains for FEDEX pilots. But that didn't happen. The government bailouts allowed Delta and the Legacies to turbocharge their product into the premium EXPERIENCE travel segment that COVID lockdown work at home people were dying to live. They also signed MASSIVE Credit Card deals that stripped the LOW COST CARRIER'S grip on the economy segment. The Legacy's now offer way too many amenities in lounges and destinations associated with their rewards programs that the LCC's are in BIG trouble. Especially after they were all forced to capitulate into Delta narrobody pay scales to stay competitive with labor.

HOWEVER, we at FedSux DID NOT see this boom or game changer in our cargo landscape. IN FACT we saw a reaction from management to CUT $6 Billion from the company cost structure. I keep hearing concessions but how can you concede to something you NEVER had. Oh we're giving upi premium pay and blah blah. We never had it structured the way the Legacy's do. Thats not a concession. GOT SCOPE? We're conceding! Are we? Cause there pretty much is NO international Scope. Never was.

Standby for $5-7 a gallon jet-fuel. How's that going to look to Delta's financials when they're budgeted at $3 a gallon? Its going to hurt FedEx too but not the way the Pax Carriers are susceptible at this point in the market. Talk about negotiation position power now?

We need to sign a deal tomorrow. Not in a year or when JG comes back to save us.

-Bubs

Not sure that any of this has a point? How they got there really doesn't matter. We live in a world of pattern bargaining and expectations because we have the same job and are represented by the same labor union. There is a market for our skillset, period.

The notion that senior guys enjoyed all of these quality of life issues up until now….and suddenly as they approach retirement are willing to give it away is a false narrative. Every single contract we have signed at FedEx has had some things given away that we didn’t like…..Lie Flat Seats, Separate Per Diem Checks, Accepted fares, the list is long. Each contract that we have negotiated the company has had items they wanted to change as well. The end result being that we have never opened a TA and felt overwhelming joy because we got everything we wanted and the company got nothing. That isn’t reality. It’s a negotiation.

Why wasn’t retirement important until now? Retirement was an issue on EVERY contract….we wanted improvements to retirement on each and every one of them. There was not a single contract negotiated where that item wasn’t challenged. We got some improvements - the B fund, improvements to the B fund. Did we get the bump in the Defined Benefit Plan….nope. FedEx has been clear that they don’t want to be in the DB business. They still don’t want to have DB.

it’s a negotiation…….not a list of our demands to be litigated while the company gets nothing. That’s the reality. My money is on the fact that when we do indeed get a contract…..it will leave a bad taste in our mouths and very few people will be overwhelmed with joyous celebration. Just like the rest of them.

Pay rates and retirement shouldn’t be a negotiation in the context of inflation. The DB plan loses value every year, and now many of us have accepted the notion that we have to negotiate/concede other contract items simply to maintain value/purchasing power. Essentially the company is making gains every contract cycle, and we, at best, are maintaining the status quo in some areas and making concessions in other areas. It’s ridiculous.

And if you think every contract requires concessions, then explain how Delta negotiated a TA with no concessions.

The above idea seems lost on a great many people. The DB and the pay scales should always track inflation (the priced to ship a package certainly does) prior to a single item being negotiated. Doing otherwise is a concession.

Say it louder! Pay and retirement increases that don't beat inflation aren't a gain...they should be baked into the first day of any negotiation opener. So while I agree it's a negotiation, if you (FedEx) want concessions, don't quote any pay and retirement increases <= inflation as a gain.

I don’t think every contract REQUIRES concessions. I believe that contract negotiations are a negotiation……not a demand list from one party to be litigated. While I’m no expert on Delta’s contract, I would be beyond surprised if their company didn’t present their union with any changes.

Perhaps a better long term focus for ALL OF US is asking our union how they track the QOL issues identified by the crew force and ensure that they are getting addressed during negotiations. Typically we have “surveyed the crew” and come up with our “Cornerstone issues”….which until recently have always been the same…Pay, Retirement, Back Pay…..and don’t mess up vacation. This cycle we discovered Scope…(which imo never made it in the survey because we all KNEW our union would never compromise scope……ooops).

But the QOL issues….we write the reps, we submit insites, we bellyache over beers. But if it isn’t being recorded, tracked and attacked during Section 6 it NEVER gets better. Those have to be broken out regardless of what the Cornerstone Issues are….and they have to be redressed appropriately during negotiations. Substitution, Reserve Rules, Dead Heading, Bids, Passover pay, seniority protections…..easy stuff like Hotel Receipts for a layover hotel, Uniform Cleaning while on the road. There are literally hundreds of these QOL issues that have fallen thru the cracks while we focus on the big 3 (or 4). Are they what is going to make or break the vote - clearly not. But if they don’t get the relevance they deserve during contract negotiations….they don’t improve.

Just one opinion,

With respect to all,

Ape

Sure and the market rate was made on TA23. Gains in DB, pay rates and B plan. It failed cause guys heard this charge of scope and student lines and they pushed the NO vote. So here we are and the market has driven up cost of living 30% and we kept our pride. I’m glad we got ICED into 3 more years of not participating in a record breaking 401k market while inflation continues to soar and we keep feeling the CHILL of 4a2c!

NEVER TA FOR ME!!!

-Bubs

Absolutely, 100% incorrect. TA23 failed first and foremost due to pay rates and a "bonus" which were below industry standard and flat out insulting. Most "No" voters had already made up their minds before even leaving the "Compensation" section, and started diving into all of the concessions - which only reinforced their decision and belief that TA23 was a retirement improvement at the expense of everything else.

You sound more and more like a management hack and company sympathizer with each and every post.

Don't we have the ChatGPT warriors at work. Unless the TA has a payrate that beats titanium futures and M3 money supply it should be voted down. HOLD!

you guys are both correct. It failed because of the terrible pay rates, back pay, and all the concessions. I was also heavily influenced to vote NO because of the unbelievably deaf sales pitch by all but one block rep and, of course, Pat and his NC. Where are the furloughs, guys? What you did to us is unconscionable.

Whatever. I sympathize for your 401k that sat out the largest gain in market history. GOT SCOPE? I hope we can get some more stickers that vote down another TA so we can really stick it to the company. Wake up! They have a fixed cost for us such irreplaceable pilots. (See note: HUB to Truck during peak). SCOPE! STUDENT LINES. S/U

-Bubs

Is that all you care about? TA2023 was trash and that’s why it got voted down. Let the 401K take its course but I’d vote NO again if this TA doesn’t meet my expectations. And as of what’ve been TA’d so far I’m already a NO voter. Pay, Retirement and Retro must be real good to change my mind.

Based on some of you guys logic, we should just take whatever the company offers first because from the day it gets voted down we’re losing money.

Why are you a no vote based on what has been TA'd? What is bad in the TA'd sections that would make you vote no?

I remember the awful, sunken feeling we had listening to PM and his gang of henchmen at the CGN roadshow desperately trying to sell us that junk. RB straight of lying about how ASL wasn’t growing in Europe, while it actually was— right in front of our eyes.

Minus all the booms in the room, it was dead on arrival after that cheap talk. After his comments about the pension, and how we had a responsibility to take care of our retiring pilots… oh but just forget about your junior self, for the sake of these rich guys. Our esteemed block rep, FF, couldn’t wait to vote yes and sell us all out for his personal gain! Ha. Look how that worked out for you. Unbelievable!

Well TBH you and a bunch of others voted no with one foot out the door and we are now left holding the bag. We would have already started openers for the next deal.
The company still operates now with even weaker scope language than the TA with current book and 2015 pay rates.
But hey "look how that worked out for you". HOLD!

We were on the MSL at the time the TA vote opened. We had every right to vote how we wanted. And it was an easy no.

Tell me where in the ALPA code of ethics it’s says to withhold a vote if you intend to leave? I’m pretty it says nothing of the fact.

I guess you could say the same about the WB guys exiting stage left with their unequivocal yes votes?

we’re not holding the bag because of line pilots that had every right to vote. Place blame where blame is due- the company and the union

I in no way said you couldn't vote whichever way you wanted. Absolutely well within your rights.

Blame "the union"?

The snow job we got about furloughs and best deal. Then we owe it to the retirees? Yeah. That was the union selling it.

My RAGE comes from how the 5 wasted years have unfolded. The company making billions and the pilot group having lost millions. We’ll never recover that. We could vote NO for 20 years. It’s gone. And we keep losing. That’s my point. No TA means we continue to lose.

For the NEVER TA ALREADY A NO crowd. You’re ignoring any total package achieved. Pay and Retirement will pass the TA. 2 more years of 2015 Pay Rates is going to be a sledgehammer to the scrotum.

-Bubs

fair enough. and to be fair, we are all rooting for you guys from the outside.