Your assumption that the 18% B fund does not hold a candle to what we have now is only valid if the cap gets raised. If the cap does not get raised then 15 or 20 years down the road when pay tops out at 450K per year that A fund will look pretty chintzy and guys will be wishing they had that 18% tucked away somewhere. As the high 5 average creeps above 260K you are no longer effectively getting 2% per year, so you will effectively have the UPS A Fund without the UPS B Fund.

Now it is your turn to say well we just wont sign a deal unless we get a raise in the cap. Here is how I think it played out.

FDX went to the mediator and said we want PBS and they wont talk to us. The mediator says ALPA why wont you talk about PBS. ALPA says we like it the way it is. The mediator says suck it up FedEx.

Next FDX went to the mediator and said we want New hires off the A Fund and ALPA wont talk to us. The mediator says ALPA why wont you talk about the A Fund. ALPA says we like it the way it is no reason to change. The mediator says suck it up FedEx.

Next ALPA goes to the mediator and says we want the A Fund cap raised and FedEx wont talk to us. The mediator says FedEx why wont you talk about the A Fund cap. FedEx says says we like it the way it is no reason to change. The mediator says suck it up ALPA.

Hey, that's only $1600/mo or $20,000/yr. Who cares - we're all rich.

Pipe

Thanks for the long discussion on why you don't like the TA, I certainly don't like a lot of it. I still say between our work rules (no PBS, vacation, sick bank, fatigue, pay for deadheads, etc), and our A Plan (how many are better) FEDEX pays as much or more for Pilots under this contract than anyone else and will for at least the next 4 years. They should we fly some of the most demanding trips and back side of the clock takes a big toll on us.

If I am wrong I am sure they will tell us at the roadshows.

:rolleyes:
Aren't you a UPS Pilot? Either way your ignorance and arrogance is staggering.


Please tell me one actual Airline Contract that has a higher rate than the proposed FedEx TA rate?

Don't worry, I'll save you the trouble...there isn't one! So yes, it will become an "Industry Leading" rate...if it gets approved. You really can't put Delta on the books. News Flash...It was voted down.

I'm thinking most guys you fly with appreciate one leg only with you.

My math may be way off, and i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong...but, when I crunch my numbers I come up with ~$370,000 average earnings required at 18% b fund and a 7% return each year to equal a 2%A / 9%B fund with the same 7% return using current pay rates. Just a wag though. I'd much rather keep what we have. BUT, the fact that the cap wasn't raised is huge in my opinion, and is concerning.

I do think that the conversation you listed may have been exactly how it went down.

I'm not too thrilled with the TA, but one perspective I had with a UPS friend about payrates, is that our WB payrate encompasses a lot more pilots than the delta or American 777/747 rates. Only a few pilots will get those rates at those airlines.I would like to see what the 767 and 757 rates were in the delta ta that was turned down, and compare those to our narrow body payrate. I havent heard much discussion about that. Anyone have that info??

The 16% B Plan at 300K is really a 11% B plan for every Captain or anyone making 300K a year. This needs to be out there and educated to the masses. It's not because of the Federal Limits. I think the Total Contributions for the B Plan and 401K is around 50K per year. So once the 50K limit is Hit, the contributions stop.

So in reality the B-Plan of 16% is a 11-12% B Plan.

Pipe,

I am on the fence. I want to hear from the dissenters their vision going forward if we kick it back.

I can live with current book for the next few years. Nobody is getting furloughed and the company isn't going into chapter 11 if we do not get a deal. If there is a solid, reasonable plan to get more I am listening. I like the deadheading and some work rule improvements, but just have a hard time not improving A plan for a mere 1% B plan bump.

I don't think the NMB is our ally right now. That does not mean a mandatory yes vote, however. I plan on listening to the road shows and asking a lot of questions.

I would like to know what the options are, if we do end up kicking it back. If we have to negotiate for another two years, that's one year of a 10% pay raise, and one year of a 13% pay raise that we have to catch up on. How much better of a deal does it have to be to catch up on that?

Will the mediator stay with us, or give up? I hope that very soon, along with the specific details of this TA, that the union tells us what happens otherwise. I'd also like to hear from the negotiating committee. If they think they got the very best deal possible for us, it would be pretty depressing for them to hear all the negative comments about it. Before the specific details are even out.

No. They Love It! lol- Since I'm not a push over like your Header says. "Contract Now?" Which implies you want a Contract Now and will take any Contract. Which is obvious from your Post. 10% Raise? Really? No wonder this profession has gone South with people like yourself thinking that this adequate for what we do. Sad.

So, no rebuttal for the fact that you are spewing inaccurate statements. ?

Yes, my demand for a contract has certainly caused the downfall of our Industry. :cool: Nice reply:eek:

Where does this two year timeline have its origin that many seem to be spreading if we vote this down? That is a long time for a contract that is basically done but may require a couple tweaks. Lets don't pull numbers out of our rears unless they have inside information. Saying it will take two years does a disservice to the crew force. We have zero knowledge of the company's motivation or timeline to resolve this matter if we vote it down.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

The company's motivation and timeline will be to continue to stall for as long as they can get away with. Bonuses for everyone (except pilots).

Commando,

It's much more complicated than that.

IRS 415 limits for 401K contributions are $18,000 annually in 2015. Catch-up contributions for employees over age 50 allow an additional $6,000 for a total of $24,000 for over age 50 employees.

Defined contribution plan limits for 2015 are $53,000. Catch-up contributions for employees over age 50 allow an additional $6,000 for a total of $59,000 for over age 50 employees.

The annual IRS compensation limit is $265,000.

The total from all plans (401K and Defined Contribution) cannot exceed the $53,000 ($59,000 over age 50) IRS 415 limit. If Fedex has proposed an 18% Defined Contribution that would mean Fedex would contribute 18% of annual compensation up to the $265,000 IRS limit or $47,700 annually. For the remainder of the compensation above the $265,000 limit Fedex could not contribute any more to your Defined contribution plan they would likely just pay you an extra 18% salary for the compensation above $265,000.

Though the IRS limit is $53,000 ($59,000 over age 50) Fedex could only contribute $47,700 of the $53,000 ($59,000) based on an 18% DC-plan. You would have to contribute the remainder as a 401K contribution to reach the $53,000 ($59,000) IRS limit. Another twist, though it's not an IRS restriction, some plans (AA did this) will not allow you to contribute to your 401K once you reach the $265,000 IRS annual limit. So in order to maximize your contributions of $53K/$59K you have to make sure you contribute to your 401K the difference from the $47,700 in this example and the $53K/$59K limit before your reach $265,000 in compensation.

If in the future your Captains make $360,000 annually the Company will not contribute 18% of $360,000 into their Defined Contribution plan because they will be limited by the annual IRS compensation limit. If a pilot made $360,000 in 2015 and had a 18% contribution plan that would equate to $64,800 in total contributions but the contribution plan limits in 2015 are $59,000 for over age 50 pilots so the pilot would have $47,700 contributed by the Company (18% of $265,000) he then could contribute an additional $11,300 ($59,000 limit minus $47,700) to his 401K and the additional $5,800 ($64,800 minus $59,000) would be paid as taxable income.

Now FedEx and ALPA may have negotiated something different but that is how it works with most airline plans.

There is no way I would give up an A-plan for a larger B-plan. First and most importantly, A-plans are not subjected to stock market swings.
If the stock market crashes the day before you retire your A-fund is not affected while your B-fund most likely will have a considerable loss. Secondly, the percentage B-fund to replace your A-fund is much larger than 18%. Thirdly, with the IRS 415 limits you will not be able to fund your retirement tax free with the entire 18% for high wage earners which further decreases the value of the 18%.

Likely not.

When the pilot reaches the limit, FedEx stops paying, period.

That's why our 7% B-fund doesn't actually give 7% to our higher-earning pilots, and why a 50% B-fund would do them no good.





.

If our options, if we reject the TA, are to continue negotiations, that would be OK, most likely! And if we sign a contract in 2 years but dont make up for the loss in those 2 years, that is the way the ball bounces. For the long term it would be better though.

I would guess that the 10 who voted to approve might say that it is the best we could get, and the 4 no votes would disagree.

Historically, it is a minority that affects any change. The majority is usually OK with the status quo.

So do you think we can get them to give us a cola and increase the A Plan cap, but not get them to negotiate a cash over b plan cap?

Just sayin' how it works now, L.






.

This should have been fixed - yet another reason to vote no.

T,

I understand completely, but at least the IRS 401k limits are indexed to inflation. Not so our DB cap. Who knows in 15 years the 401k cap might be higher. That is also how it works now.

The problem is the IRS Caps are just as detrimental to B-Funds.

The B-fund is rumored to go to 8% and and then 9% although not for a few years.

So this is a positive for people with more than 8 years to go although it would be more positive if it was an immediate 9%.:cool:

If it was an immediate 14%, I would be happy to let the A-plan stagnate and consider the retirement section completely acceptable.

Is that in our best interest? Not in mine (stock market dumps the year you retire, as an example). But, with a significant increase to the B-plan, I think those of us who feel retirement was not properly addressed to the level we have earned, would be able to see this big item as acceptable.

Yes and I'm still trying to figure out how it all works but my understanding is it is only on the first $265,000 of earnings so its not a true 1% now and 1% later. If you make over $265, and I bet over half our crew force does or soon will with the new pay rates, you are not getting what you should. The extra over the $265 should have been paid to us directly.

But that doesn't address the issue either. You would only be receiving 18% on your first $265 than the company stops paying. You are getting short changed.

I completely agree.

I would find the 14% B-plan acceptable, but not ideal, because an improved A-plan is really what is worth defending.

FYI, They also wouldn't be getting what they should with a large B-Plan. Balance is the way to go.

You are also forgetting about the $53,000 IRS cap on Defined Contribution plans.

B-fund
401k
Sick Buy Back
Company Match

Ok.. Looks like I got this one right... 54 at time of signing....

Does any one else miss the 3% interim contracts yet? Seems we never, ever win on work rules.

I've said that from the beginning - don't change anything, just pay me more to do it!

Same here, people thought I was nuts. At least I knew where all the pitfalls were before.

Unless we vote NO.

Beginning to look like a genius idea. My health care premiums could only go up by 6% a year. Our two contract extensions were 3% raises...keeping that up with no other changes would be preferable to this.

Personally ... I think it all comes out of the same pot of money and Management doesn't care how we want to divide the pot ...

:confused:

You can say that again.

Great history lesson by bumping this thread...

Delta pilots shot down their awful 2015 and came out much further ahead than if they didn't. Plus that set them up to build upon it which they did in 2022.

FedEx pilots didn't shoot ours down in 2015 and lost more than even imagined. Thank goodness we didn't make the same mistake in 2023.

And Atlas' last contract took five years. Guess which scenario is closest to ours.

why is it that both you and tuck both promote fear of not taking the company’s first and worst offers and also both have four letter usernames that both rhyme with cuck? Very suspicious.

we’re only 7 months past TA rejection. Still closer to DL than Atlas ( did Atlas even reject a TA? I dont think so… they didnt get to vote)

Previous FDX MEC leadership set the tone of: we’re willing to accept dog poop as long as you serve it to us fast. That conditioned the company to offer us nothing besides dog poop. Reconditioning the company will take time and effort. Sadly we already wasted almost 3 years that could have been used for conditioning.

Its revival week!! Praise the lord! You bored or just can't find anything relevent. Notice how almost all of the posters on this dead thread are gone?

We found a cuck. Best wishes Stan.