IMO
 

In my opinion I feel that the "yes" guys are voting out of fear. I feel they don't really think it's a good TA but are afraid of not getting a better one or of having to wait another 6-12 months. I have heard a bunch of "No" guys trying to persuade the "Yes" guys to vote no, but I haven't heard one "yes" guy try to persuade a "no" guy. A friend of mine said it best. Nads, you either got them or you don't.

TOGA!

Policywonk, is it you? So nice to see you again, it's been such a long time.

Dang right I'm scared.

Scared we're going to waste another 2-3 years and never get back the time value of money.

Don't be such a wussy, it's not like your losing your job.

True. Been there, done that, not any fun whatsoever.

However. Huck does have an important point. My example (as everyone has a different number) one year delay=$32,650. Two year delay=$74,300. Don't even want to think about a third year. It is a balance of how much one believes it will cost to delay, how long it will be delayed, and how much one thinks a different TA might improve. Add how much you value money over possible QOL issues, or if you think QOL will improve or decline because of the TA. Easy call for some, tough call for others.

Says the triple captain......

What is that supposed to mean?

He has less to lose?

Feel free to support that with some details?

I find it interesting that some proponents of rejecting this TA have thrown out anything from 4 months to 1 year to achieve yet another TA. Sure it's anyones best guess, but the idea that this TA that took more than 4 years to achieve will be tossed to the trash bin and we will establish a new NC, possibly new committee's, and perhaps even a partial or full replacement of the MEC. THEN, survey, poll, and re-negotiate another complete TA within one year is mind boggling.

Let's just say the deal will take probably more time than anyone of us will find reasonable. Unless of course you FEAR to discuss how long it may really take?

So I think it may feel good to say all the YES voters are reacting to fear, but after speaking to many, it's an educated opinion based on the facts, risk assessment, and a high level of knowledge of failed TA's in previous airline labor deals. I have yet to find a pilot quivering in fear about the outcome.

I wonder how long the TNT deal will take to close?

Sometimes it isn't just about the money. If it takes 2 years to get another TA so be it. Better than sacrificing QOL for the next 8 years while simultaneously showing the company we have no unity, no backbone and are willing to assist in throwing our profession under the bus

Really guys? Are the less than 3%/year, and signing bonus, enough to overlook the fact that we are signing this deal for 6-10 years???

Considering:
-the lack of achieving an improved A-plan
-the minimal improvement to the B-plan
-the loss of 1st class DH (important due to the deviation bank)
-the possibilities opened up with 6-week bid periods
-the expanded use of hub sleep rooms
-the loss of HILO for FDA's, Hawaii, Anchorage, Central and South America
-the yet-to-be-determined SLR language
-the addition of 20% of R-days to PBS (yes, even the NC has agreed it is PBS 2.0, after our VTO system)
-the 3 year commitment for new hires to FDAs
-the max 10% increase in monthly health insurance vs. 6%
-the loss of passover pay
-the addition of Dash-8 and equivalent aircraft added to EUR DH's (again, about the deviation bank)
-the hidden gems in the language of section 25
-the allotment of a large sum of negotiating capital to our retiring captains, so that in the event they were thinking of retiring before 64.5, they won't now?
-the encouragement of flying sick, for max SLB, or to die while trying?
-the precedent we set by agreeing to a TA that does NOT meet our cornerstone Section 6 Openers?

I mean, I guess we all have a price point. But really, are we that desperate for this amount of pay raise to sign this for close to a decade??? The company thinks so. I do NOT. I hope you do not either.

I like how so many think it took 4 years to negotiate this TA. It took 1 week! That's when the company for some unknown reason threw their best and final offer on the table. Guess what, we took it!! Someone, something, a higher power perhaps, said get it done. Up until then the company was shadow boxing with a rope-a-dope training partner. Duck, dive, stall all the while extending crews, questioning use of contractual rights, excessing, not hiring, asking to buy back vacation, and AVA. Contract Now explains it all.:rolleyes:

The Ford CEO said get it done.

And also very likely, the pressing needs from the EU for the TNT acquisition. If we vote this TA in, we will know soon enough. If we reject it, we will also know, but we will be in a much better position than we are in today (with a TA that meets our Openers).

And we will get the TA we set out to achieve in our Openers, which will be worth our collective effort, before Thanksgiving, without doing any hard work to achieve it (just kidding Rock, just kidding).

Line in the sand?
 

Wasn't our "Line in the sand" NO PBS?

Well this TA crosses that line. In fact the company gets one third of their originally proposed PBS plan with absolutely nothing in return.
I was told two years ago that the company wanted to keep 60% of the trips and reserve days available to "build" schedules under their proposed PBS system. Mind you that 60% was the company's "aim for the stars" offering and they realistically didn't think that 60% figure was possible but a high number to start negotiations with.

As Cloud Sailer brought to light in his post above;

-The addition of 20% of R-days to PBS (yes, even the NC has agreed it is PBS 2.0, after our VTO system)

Throughout negotiations our union continued their warcry of "no PBS" all the while reassuring the pilot group that NO PBS was a cornerstone issue

60% trip/R Day holdback (desired)
20% R Day holdback (achieved)
That looks to me as if;
THE COMPANY ACHIEVED ONE THIRD OF PBS FOR FREE

We may want to reword that whole "cornerstone" and "NO PBS" mission statement

See Raptor this is my point. For every bullet here I could make a counter argument that is just as much a reason to vote yes. But yes voters aren't reasoned like the no voters, we are "desperate".

Them post your list. I don't think yes voters are desperate, I just disagree with them.

I have I refuted or countered all of them. Take retirement, I don't want to pay what it will cost to boost the A Plan. The B Plan went up 2% what did you expect. We tied the NC hand on this.

The loss of a first class DH. Misnomer and misleading, we never had a guaranteed first class except over 16 hours. We have had a class upgrade that the company can and is playing with under the current language that you guys want to keep indefinitely. The Lie Flat provision is well defined and guarantees at least a class upgrade.

Six week bid periods are our idea, and a good one. 10 four week and 2 six week months make scheduling much easier and is much more conducive to time off then 8 and 4 5 week. Nothing stops the company from scheduling 8 five week months and 3 four week months now but they don't, why?

The expanded use of hub sleep rooms. Can only happen if they can guarantee just about every hub turner a sleep room. But Bluto they control the schedule and make it so they don't require one. Yes and they do that now, I have day hub turns that went from 4:20 turns to 3:58 and I have lost my sleep room.

The loss of HILOs. The gain of rolling travel banks.

The yet to be determined SLR language. The company can use whatever secondary line program they want, nothing stops them contractually, with this TA they have agreed to work with us. If you are senior and bidding a VTO you will have more say over your schedule then now. If you are Junior and bidding a VTO you will have more say over your schedule then now.

The PBS delusion. Our VTOs are and have always been and will always be a form of PBS. Right now it is a very bad version of PBS. The NC has attempted to make it better.

Enough for now. Nap time.

You may find it odd, but after retirement, the HILO give back is my biggest beef and I'm not even an FDA guy!

I just don't feel the need that I have to pay for everything or cost neutralize everything.

Enjoy your nap!

I find it really interesting that no one expected the timing of this...and no one from the union has brought up this point. I think there is no coincidence as to the timing of the offer. I said last fall to my friends we would have an offer around October of 2015, no sooner. The reason was the $1.7 billion dollar cost cutting announced in 2012.

FedEx Announces Programs Targeting $1.7 Billion In Annual Profit Improvement by End of Fiscal 2016

Pretty certain top level management was telling anyone below them to defer as many costs as possible, including large new contract payouts until after this period. They can then deliver on there promise to the BOD and shareholders and collect their bonuses...

I also would also bet a contract for multiple 757/767 sims comes out in November time-frame.

Just my thoughts.

Unless I am incorrect, I believe they finished negotiating some sections quite some time ago. It was the major money sections that were the last to be completed, but much of these negotiations were agreed to piecemeal, months before the final week.

I was curious if all those completed sections were kept a mystery from the reps. It seems that some of them were completely blindsided, shocked, by sections that were agreed upon a long time ago. I wonder if the mediation process requires that every single thing be kept secret until the final product is produced.

Don't find it odd at all, everyone has their own rice bowl. Vacuuming maid, no Nap.

The three year commitment for new hires at $100 bucks an hour. Good trade, last I checked no new hire has to go to a FDA.

Max 10% increase in monthly costs. The company's cost are going to out run ours buy multiples. We kept our plan despite Nancy Pelosi's efforts to kill it. Plus we have other alternatives which looking at them could be a very good deal if you are young and healthy.

Loss of Passover pay. It is what we asked for. Tell me how we can bid for training slots and keep passover? Slot denial is a good alternative.

The addition of Dash 8s, much like RJs, a fact of life in modern air travel.

Section 25 hidden gems, must be well hidden, on the whole I like the section 25 changes. They might have peed in my rice bowl with the 8-24 day time relief, if so I'll buy a new rice bowl.

The allotment of large sums to retiring captains, SLB, buy back, fly till you die. More options for those that want it. I plan on using my sick leave for when I am sick. I guarantee our survey said something about recovering our sick banks upon retirement.

2.67379412 % raise. Who here thinks signing bonus ever makes up for lost wages? I don't. And I am certain another 2 year delay will result in more lost pay. Not to mention continued lost opportunities to cash in while the company is shorthanded like so many others are currently doing.

Agree or disagree all APC comments are generally amusing and sometimes welcome. But I have voted and am done debating. For the record I voted no, logged my vote on APC, and then went back and changed my vote to yes. Just because I could.

Unfortunately, for many, it is. That is why we will never get the contract we deserve. Kick butt company, making lots of money, and we might settle for mediocrity. JMO.

Sometimes it makes me sad to be working in this environment; except for the paycheck. ;)

There is a little known bug at the voting company, it records your first vote only, despite what it says!:D

Now, how many disclaimers should I add and how many people will question if you can really change your vote or not?:confused:

Well, considering that there are a lot of givebacks to a company that is doing very well, counter arguments would prove a dilution of your worth.

I thought it was a fair summary.

I heard that's only if it's a YES vote.
So if the TA passes, then we'll know why.:cool:

That sounds "desperate" to me! :rolleyes: Do you really think it is that many or just the usual suspects like it has always been?

Also, what guarantee do you have that those "lost opportunities" will be there if this TA passes. Maybe everyone will go back to flying their normal schedule and there will be nothing in open time. I know for my seat that once the secondary lines are built there is very little left in open time! Trips don't start showing up until open time is released and trips are dropped.

Not Desperate just logical, I happen to be very senior in a seat that is growing and shorthanded. It does not happen often in a career, and the last two years I have not been able to take advantage. Others have. When/if TA 2.0 comes around I may not have the opportunities. Voting no and remaining on the sidelines will cost me 30K at current contract wages next year with very little extra work.

You ought to quit and work on wall street then. ;)