I'm a MD11 FO AND A minority and I live in ATLANTA... So if the assumption is I'm in the wolf pack by others than they can kick rocks... Look at my schedule !! I've had this questions asked to me 2 times in a week if I'm in some wolf Pack and it's bull if the assumption is I'm Atlanta a minority and MD11 FO... I've heard of 3 Wolfpack members non of who live in Atlanta all who are white and all who fly these beautiful around the world trips... It's not hard to figure out if you look at JUNIOR MD11 pilots who fly international always ... Race and Atlanta have nothing to do with it

It's a VTO, not a CIC. So no need to specifically request this trip. Somebody has a general "any international trips" request. But you are correct that if it remains frozen for another week then it won't go VTO.

I agree. However, after all the trips are assigned for the VTOs, there will always be some left over. If this trip is specifically requested, it is likely that it will go to a VTO holder as opposed to being left in open time. I have had a number of general requests ignored, so I don't have much faith that general requests will be filled. Others may have had better luck.

Honestly, from the looks of it, it doesn't look like a fantastic trip to me.

Who wants go to to Djibouti anyway? Although I guess the Sicily layover is nice?

Does the Wolfpack operate out of ANC at all? I see two mil charters open on 02 and 03 MAR.


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They are omniscient, therefore they could be operating anywhere at any time. :-)

Chrtr
 

Don't see how a D/H to FAI and fly back would be that great of a deal for an ANC crew.

No, no...Completely different family. The Grizzpack operates out of ANC.

Completely wrong. In Alaska we shoot wolves from airplanes. And in most cases, if you're hunting and you see a wolf, it gets shot. Same thing with Grizzlies, unless you have to put in for a permit.

Going to the Fur Rondy fur auction next weekend. Lots of wolf hides for sale.

Rumor is, not confirmed, that they are non minorities and maybe all non men.

Just another non racist saying non racist things. Get a clue dude. If checks 6 isn't on you, then you are way off on the issue.

So who is getting what now, and who is whining because someone got something they didn't get? Surely your Union would address this issue of inequality. If not, whats your gripe, union leadership failing to take a stand again? Classic.

A true [I wanted to say "conservative", but I won't] would say:

"Screw you, if I can pay off a scheduler to get a better trip and make more money then I win and YOU LOSE. So what? If you are too stupid to figure it out and compete on the same level as me then stop whining"!

-I do NOT feel this way,

-I do NOT think that this should happen,

and

-I DO wish this stuff would stop. And I AM positing that there is active graft between pilots and schedulers at Fedex.

I don't think you know what a conservative is, except for the insulting liberal definition, trying to imply selfishness. Your example is closer to a true free market capitalist.

One might think but inactuality it is how the communist party officials got their own "hov" lanes in Moscow.

A conservative believes in rule of law a liberal believes in owning your own server for government emails so that you can around any liberal inspired FOI requests.

I think we are missing the point entirely with the Wolfpack.

It use to annoy me that the same guys were getting the sweetest trips. Now, it doesn't bother me much (because I can't control it) but when I consider the actual makeup of these trips, it gives me great concern. What makes these trips attractive? Everything. First class DDH international, Front end or Back end DHs, days of hotel stby, long layovers and limited operational legs to name a few. I don't have any problem with anyone sitting in first class etc... but I do have a problem with the chronic avoidance of actual stick and rudder time. Many, if not most, of these charter flights occur on the MD11, an airplane that has a history of landing mishaps/tailstrikes/incidents here and at other places too.

I'm sure if you check these guys' calendars, you'd find a typical pattern of the clearing of the monthly schedule at OT release and then the obsession beginning with swooping in on the choice trips. I know there were discussions about how the same population of pilots were able to snag these trips through less than honorable means be it special trading software or insider help. I'll give them all the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge that they were investigated and cleared by management but that doesn't really solve the problem I have with this issue.

There's a world of difference between being current and proficient. The MD11 has the knack of shining a bright light on whether you're the former or the latter. Just a couple of weeks away and the jet and the operation remind you that you're not perfect and that proficiency is a pursuit rather than an end. With that in mind, I find it hard to believe, especially in the case of first officers who can't predict which landings they'll get, that real proficiency isn't compromised by stringing months upon months of these choice trips together. Again, I don't have a problem with a good deal and if you want to sit in front of a computer all day or salivate at the sound of three dings while strapped to your cell phone constantly, more power to you, have at it, knock yourself out, etc... but that's not for me.
I've heard other pilots lament about how we have career RFOs that rarely fly in the front seats for takeoff and landing and how they sometimes ask the front seaters to give them one of their landings. I have the same issue with that group too--chronic avoiders of stick and rudder time. If a pilot doesn't want to or is afraid to touch MD11 controls much, he/she could RFO on a more forgiving airplane. I hear the triple is an awesome jet that has fantastic landing characteristics and sports a great bunk. The problem is that most of the charter trips are booked on the MD. To be sure, there are definite scheduling benefits, flexibility being one of them, to flying the MD11 vs the 777's bid pack that are well known but this group known as the Wolfpack appears to be greedy. They want the choice trips, with the fewest landings, with the most flexibility and the highest probability of PMU which fuels the whole thing, apparently.

To add insult to injury, I'm aware of a particular wolf pup that if he's been slurping from the charter trough and gets low on landings, he'll put couple of back to back (afternoon hub turns, if you can believe it) domestic trips on his schedule to keep his 3x3 currency followed by the next landing currency event at the 6 or 12 month training cycle. Is this someone you want to stake our company's future or your tickets on? I think not. This guy and anyone like him doesn't give a flying flahoop about anyone but themselves. If they cared about the rest of us or the company, they would do things differently --prioritizing proficiency and duty to others above their own desire to constantly feed at the charter trough.
Our top executive cares enough about us, the other employees and the company's survival enough to funnel considerable resources toward having our excellent men and women in MD11 training create stellar MD training modules dedicated to 50' and below. Speaks volumes doesn't it? It does to me, anyway. The stakes are high.
Who cares? I do. At the very least, we owe it each other to, among other things, be proficient. Stuff happens, I know, but if the overarching theme of your professional life is sharpshooting your schedule so as to avoid operational legs causing your skills to diminish, you're a threat. Have the class to not to ask for a landing, even if it's CAVU/winds calm and then go try your luck with a check airman in the sim for your landing proficiency. Should you ask for a landing, I'll respond in the negative. Should be no problem since you're the ace of the base...

A true honorable hardworking conservative would not say this nor believe this. Your post is a stretch, far from the point of this thread, and stupid.

Hillanddale....

My MV or CLOE (cannot remember which) had to get rescheduled when one of these guys who moved on tubed his ride and he needed XTs. I thought to myself at the time it wasnt surprising. Probably a very solid pilot at one time, but even a good pilot who "rides along" for a while may find some of those skills waning if they havent been used in a while.

FWIW...similar problem for guys on reserve in FDAs. I have had to bump several pilots for trips after getting considated.

I always thought if I showed up with less than about 10 landings on the release when I was flying the -11 I was screwing up and not doing my captain any favors. (Everyone may have different opinions on their own right number...3 or more landings a month was mine...). Now as a new captain on a new jet I have a similar philosophy. I know with more experience fewer landings and longer breaks might be okay, but the 767 is a remarkably pleasant jet to land. I loved the -11, and miss a few things about it, but I think anyone who has flown it knows staying really good at landing it takes some effort.

Situation is self correcting. How about captains not giving up them any landings. All that deadheading and RFO flying sounds like they could use some more sim time.

Exactly...

I would also like to add that a problem I saw on the MD-11 were Captains taking all of the landings and not letting the operating FO have any. This happened to me more than once. Everyone complains about the FO not managing their landings but Captains? Seriously? I expect that issue to get even worse now that MD-11 Captains can bid RFO trips. And before anyone tries to say it, no these weren't personal issues - the Captains needed the extra landings for their currency. Also these guys weren't junior and being forced to sit Reserve...

I think your personal experience is not the norm. You must have just had some bad luck flying with guys coming off extended sick, vacation or some other absence. If they're flying the line regularly, the only way a Captain would be hurting on landings is if they chose to be. I seriously doubt that's a systemic problem. Maybe a few outlier's personal agenda, but probably not something most MD-11 FOs are dealing with on a regular basis. Not letting the FO have any of the landings is usually a symptom of something else, but you already assured us that's not the case. ;)

I did a document search of the new contract using RFO. Other than finding out the word "peRFOrm" appears over 150 times, I could not find anything that indicates a change allowing Captains to "bid RFO trips". Do you have a contract reference for that?

There are Capt RFO only lines in the ANC bid pack. This is due to the FO shortage that crew manning created with the big excess.

I agree, to a point. I see some Captains with a blanket "no RFO gets a landing" policy when common sense may dictate otherwise. The fact the RFO is a 8XXXXX number and on reserve/VTOs doesn't come into play with some of these guys. I agree, if the RFO is senior enough to manage his schedule and can obviously bid flying trips then maybe a question as to why they're short on landings may be in order.

This bit me when I was on the -11. I had a 60+ day military deployment which left me close on landings. The month I got back, of course, I get a custom line, and we all know how good they are. Reserve... RFO trip. I need a landing to avoid going to the sim and losing a flying trip the following month. I RFO out to Asia with a captain, and I was telling him my story. It turns out, I was RFOing with him at the end of the trip back to the States. He said he'd give me the leg back. Well, the next week comes along, and we're getting off the bus at the jet and I mention to him, "remember you said you'd let me have the leg back?" He looked at me and with disgust said "oh... you want the landing?" I said "yeah, back in XXX you said I could have the leg back." "We'll see..." he says.

I get up to the cockpit after the walkaround, and he basically tosses the release at me and says "weather's getting bad in XXX, I'm taking the leg." I look at the forecast 1500 OVC/3 miles. Really? If you don't want me to have the landing, just say so... don't make up some weather BS just because you don't have the balls to tell me no.

When we get to XXX clear and a million. Does he offer me the landing? Nope. He did offer me his hand when we were parting ways. He got a "whatever" and a view of my back. He's the only guy that was on my no-fly-list. Dick.

Later I looked at my calendar for the previous 12 months. I had one, count 'em, one, RFO trip.

I'm going to send up the "BS" flag on this one ... I just don't believe it's true?

I flew the MD-11 for 18 years. I frequently flew RFO trips and spent YEARS on Reserve. As an f/o I was sometimes short on landings. When I mentioned it to the Captain they were ALWAYS nice about giving me the extra landing. When I upgraded to Captain I saw the problem less often but I also flew a much higher percentage of domestic MD-10 trips.

If you're honestly seeing this problem, maybe the cause is looking you in the mirror each and every morning? This sounds like some sort of personal vendetta to me ... you didn't fail to pass upgrade training did you?

MM


:eek:

That option has always been there if the folks in charge of manning pork away their job. Paying Captains to RFO is something the company does out of necessity, not as a regular practice. Iwa made it sound like this was some new thing allowing Captains to bid RFO trips if it suits them.

His whole scenario really doesn't sound plausible as a regular problem most guys are dealing with. Very strange. :confused:

LA as well.

Well Mayday Mark. I've obviously never had the honor of basking in the glory of your esteemed presence. I'm sure I would have remembered it if I had, since it would have been a noteworthy experience for sure. We definitely have more than our fair share of great men and women at FedEx, but it is an amazing ability indeed to draw multiple conclusions from a single paragraph without being in possession of any facts whatsoever. Anyway, it appears to me that: 1. You are flat out calling me a liar, 2. Questioning my character, and 3. Even indicating I have had problems in Training. Those are amazing assumptions indeed to draw from what I wrote.

You are wrong on all counts of course, but please don't take my word for it here. Go ahead and contact me personally if you dare. I'll pass you the pairings in question. We can then discuss my spotless training record here; and finally I can ask you in person why you thought it was acceptable to attack me in the manner in which you did.

Meanwhile, what I wrote stands and nothing you can pull out of thin air can change that. Captains I have flown with have taken all the landings on a trip to manage their own currency. It is their right of course and no one questions that. I went non-current once because of it and I merely bring it up as another factor or dynamic to consider when the senior here question why FO's sometimes have trouble staying current. Raise your little flag if you want, it changes nothing.

I fly 777 f/o trips all the time and don't get 3 landings. Trips can be 10 days long with 5 or 6 legs, and the captains take at least half, sometimes more. Put a vacation month next to that, and you're going to a 3 and 3. (Because once you get the notice you'll be non current, you gotta go soon or miss out on tweaking your schedule down the line.)

I needed just one landing to get reset earlier this year, and the captain took both legs to and from Europe. He said he needed them though a check of his schedule showed otherwise. Plus he should have gotten quite a few more that month. I ended up picking up a trip to get it, but there's hardly never any short tripss to do that.

This was covered by an FCIF moons ago but remember, it's a take off AND landing. When you log a landing it assumes and logs a take off to count toward your currency. That's why the sim is (was) called a "three and three". So, when you give an RFO the landing, you have to give him the T.O. too....so for all intents you're swapping roles between the F.O. and the RFO. I did this in the past, but never without consulting my F.O. and getting his approval, even though I was giving up my leg. "The weather looks good, the RFO can have the landing", doesn't comply.