I didnt know that I had to have an invite from you to be able to comment.

That is a matter of perspective...WE ALL LOST, we lost our unity, we lost our leverage at a critical time in aviation, we lost sight of our worth, we lost trust in our Union and fellow pilots, we lost our cool...

Many reasons why I would never go into a side business with an airline pilot. Also why the company might be moving away from 'Pilot Management,' get professional managers in there. Yalll seem like a giant sorority house on the rag at times...way to emotional and b1tchy.

We lost?

I got a 10% raise, a decent bonus, kept my pension, got a bump in my B fund, didn't get PBS, got more business class deadheads, got some money for sick leave when I retire......

Call it a sub-par contract. Call it too small an increase. But we are not losers.

Okay.. we tied. :D I remember what tying felt like from my sport life.......didn't feel the same as winning. :cool:

Slight thread drift
 

Not wanting to start a new thread - Since we're sort of talking contract:

Can anyone explain why 777 pairing 2207/5May pays 7CH?

Seems like your normal 6CH trip.

18:41 TAFB, 1:18 Block and a back end DH? Did something in the new contract change this?

No offense but it might be working out good as they are not locked in for 6 years like we are with no increase in retirement, improvements in scheduling or work rules etc. As many including myself we are already having to grieve the first class requirement and bank money. You can still show for the good trip you have been finally able to hold seniority wise only to have it given away for draft and you are stuck flying the crap trip. Still no clear requirement to offer you sub instead of simply changing your trip etc.

While I cannot claim that I know for sure if we voted no the next contract would be better, the reverse is true for taking the first one offered. I live within my means and did not need to jump for the first offer.

In the end we are stuck for 6 years at minimum probably more like 9 years congratulations!

A very quick look says it should pay 6:31 3 hours for the first duty period and 3:31 block for the dh

duty time for deadhead is 6:00 hours. 6/1.5 = 4 hour duty rig for second duty period. Show time for deadhead is in the critical period

..........

A cost of living adjustment, and that wasnt a bonus. That was lost COLA wages, and not even. a one percent bump in bplan, two percent over two years, which may or may not cap out anyway. We kept a few things we had already negotiated, pension being one, and no PBS being another. And if you cash out ur sick leave, you may get half, maybe, but you will most definitely lose the full value of time. Don't even get me started on the travel banks. No, we all lost, but 57 percent are either blind to this, in denial, or indifferent.

What you have something against being called a piece of work? Did I tell you you couldn't comment. What a piece of work.

If you want unity I suggest you forget about the last contract and work on the next. No one here can find a post where I told anyone how to vote. Lots of posts from others telling people how to vote. Lots of things I didn't like about the contract. Lots of things I liked. On the whole I decided to take my vote and vote yes, and for that douchbags seem to take offense. I didn't fly extra the entire period from when the contract went amendable. Some others on here who now want a new contract can't make the same claim. I am not the problem with unity, get over it.

From your keyboard....

"And this started with him calling me out for something in the contract that wasn't on the table. Once again he wanted the fight. But you are a real piece of work for butting in. Again."

you do realize it is what you said to me first right? Don't we go through this every time you butt in. You say something to me, I say essentially the same thing to you, and you get offended? Then after three or four rounds someone else steps in and says knock it off. So let's skip ahead to that part.

Has anyone said, Keep it up? If not, allow me the honor. Nothing beats the depths of idiocy, which has no end.

Ahh, APC......

It really is a matter of perspective. To 57% of us, we all won. To 43% of us, we all lost. However, with only 57% voting in favor - and considering the NC's biased roadshows/videos and our "influential" crew members' endorsement of the TA - there is one group that clearly won: FedEx Corp.

Now, I love working for a company that knows how to win, and does it so often and so ruthlessly. FDX negotiates this way for company acquisitions (e.g., TNT), a/c acquisitions, customer contracts, etc... They (upper management) master the negotiating trade. They know how to look and plan for the long-term (1 or 2 decades ahead of us). It just happens to suck when it is our union and crew force that is out-negotiated, out-paced, and out-lasted; and when it is our asses handed to us.

We had 4 years to prepare for a marathon, and 43% of us believe we gave up on mile 20. That happens. 6.2 miles to go is still a long way, and some were not willing to see if we would make it. The company owns the running course, and the remaining 6.2 miles were going to be steep, no doubt about it. Some of us thought we should give it our best effort and continue, but the majority of us were happy with what we had accomplished. It's over. It is time to train for the next marathon, and not be thinking about the last one.

So, we should now be working together. IMO, there should be no us/them between the whomever voted yes/no; and there should be no us/them between us and the company. I know some say we are always in negotiations. I don't necessarily see it that way. This is the time to do our jobs outstandingly well, to help the company continue to excel at what we do as a group. We need to help ourselves by doing our part in beating the competition. I have a couple of friends at UPS, and wish them the best personally, but I hope we kick their company's ass. The same thought goes for Amazon's airline.

Time to move on and make sure we here and dominating 3 decades from now - for those who will still be flying, and for those who will be collecting their retirement.

Ha! That was exactly what I was thinking.

and, of course, Dumb'sa Rock gotta penny up 2 cents.

Ha! That was exactly what I was thinking. ;)

Ahh, APC......
:rolleyes:

So is CRS still a joke after all the bickering?

This is the attitude that bothers me the most. We got a 3% annual raise.

It reminds me of old military leadership. Take away stuff, then give it back to them later and the troops think they had a huge win.

We already had a pension and we already didn't have PBS. Thanks for letting us keep them! We win!

We may get to sell back sick leave at half price (with restrictions) instead of taking it at full price. Big win!

I am not a lawyer but after reading this contract and contract 2011 I conclude the best way to get paid for your sick leave is to call in sick. I'll call CE and see if I am correct in my legal interpretation. Those who like to hoard it now have an option, where as before they didn't.

P.S. The best way to get the company to be willing to pay us for hoarding sick leave is to call in sick.

Let's say your house caught on fire.

The fire department came and saved your house.

Would you say, "Thanks for nothing. I just have what I already had."

The new corporate head of legal was going to make his bones by ushering in PBS. It was going to save the company 10-15% in staffing costs. It is industry standard. Our union fought it off to the point where it never even got to a TA to be voted down.

The house didn't burn. But all we got now is the same house. If you don't like an attitude of gratitude for that then I don't know what to tell you.

Yep, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Sure, the company wanted PBS. They'd like to pay us pennies on the dollar and they'd like to take our retirement.

I don't think we won by keeping what we already had. That's absolutely ridiculous. It was probably the best opportunity to IMPROVE our contract that we will ever have in our careers. They are hundreds of pilots short. They are hiring like mad but still offering AVA in almost every seat. Sure, there will always some of us flying draft during negotiations. But they are so short, it would still put pressure on the company to negotiate.

I think we left a lot on the table. I think we made a big mistake not drawing our line in the sand and improving our retirement. Honestly, I could live with rest of this unspectacular contract, but not addressing retirement was a deal killer for me. I have about 10 years left. The B fund improvement will increase my account by about 40k over those 10 years. That's really not much.

People make a huge deal over PBS. I worked at a legacy carrier that had it. Sorry, but it wasn't a big deal. Seniority ruled, and many times you had better lines than you have now. Instead of someone else building lines, you built them yourselves. I hear guys saying that they can't get a full month off on vacation months and that sort of thing, then they sell back their vacations and work 20 days that month anyway. I'd much rather have our current system, but it has it's price too.

Just looking at the last 24 months of two typical pilot's career under CBA 2011.
One flies all his normal lines, no heroics/draft/etc, and retires. The other is regularly sick (since he's old :rolleyes:) and depletes his sick bank( bidding the same types of lines as pilot 1 and retires. At the end of 24 month, they both ended up with the same amount of money (absent some per diem and maybe over-8 international) in their pockets. Obviously, pilot 2 got that money along with a significant amount of time away from work. But, I think we would agree that he received dollar for dollar payout of his sick bank. There really was no downside for pilot 2.

Under CBA 2015, if the same thing happens, pilot 2 is no longer technically getting a 1 for 1 return on his sick time. He would have to account for the $110,000 dollars he gave up to use his sick leave. Maybe he doesn't care or have any choice but it's still money left on the table. It might still be worth it for some people depending on their situation - but, it's going to give some others a little pause.

Also, remember - when you do the math on the lesser of the three bonus options: Any sick time used does not count toward the over $520K earned in the last 24 months column.

I agree with you to some degree. If you want to leave with the most, sell back your sick leave. But, if you want to maximize your quality of life (and possibly your long term health), use your sick leave.
To really max your pay: If you have makeup left, you are probably leaving money on the table by selling back sick leave. Call in sick and use your general make up to fly trips on your off days. I realize not everyone has make up left, so this option isn't available for everyone.

I understand and agree with your point from an intangible QOL standpoint. There are other guys who approach this decision from a simple dollars and cents perspective. Prior to CBA 2015, this was not a difficult calculation.

Now, it's going to take a little more thought depending on one's situation, priorities and goals.

Just a scenario to consider: The decision to sell back sick leave will not always be a simple choice to accept a 50% buyback and think that's what you'll end up with in your pocket. Say a pilot plans to sell his sick leave back but isn't stressing on getting the max. He uses some when appropriate but leaves most of it alone. Maybe he decides to skate his last two years, bids min BLG lines and even drops a few trip now and then for QOL. He ends up with 280K of eligible earnings per year for the last 24 months (so $560K).

No matter what he leaves in his sick bank, all he is getting is $20,000 since that is the lesser of the three bonus options. That is half of $40K (the amount of eligible earnings over $520K last 24 months). Just food for thought.

Agreed. While there is no best plan for everyone, I still think getting 100% of my sick pay works best for me.

What I hope we don't see are people flying sick (instead of using sick time like it was designed) to get a check when they retire. Sadly, I think we'll see this a lot...

When you call in sick it gets recorded in a data base. This data base was perfected by a new hire who used to be an assistant fleet mgr.
I has certain trigger points that have been discussed before.
BUT be fully aware. If you call in sick you are being graded.
Management has a pilot report card on you with your name picture. So If you call or e-mail your fleet capt or scp. The first thing they do is pull up your report card. If it shows you have not called in sick in (15 years for example) you are a good guy. They will listen to you. If it shows you call in sick "frequently" you are graded as a non player= bad employee.
The report card also has every call to the DO you ever made in detail. If you were ever late. Deviated and made a mistake. The list goes on.
You may recall the company used to post top hotel room cancelers. The guys who saved company $ Beware. Just look out by the bus stops and all the cameras every where.
Call in sick or fatigued with great care.

Long, long ago, I was told that we could go to management and ask to see what was in our "file".

Does anyone know if that is still true?

Is it possible to see our "report card"?

+1. Pretty much says it.

Why should we care? Given all the stories we know about some of our more special pilots, I'm not sure anything in any report card really matters.

And now, time for more deep thoughts, by Dumb'sa Rock.

For obvious reasons, you won't understand this, but every time I read one of your grunts on APC, I'm reminded of walking by a drunk homeless guy who is yelling incoherently at passersby. For just a couple seconds I wonder what he's trying to say. Then I realize he probably doesn't even know, and I move on.

I am sure it is in a data base, how else would they track how much you have left. As to whether or not management thinks I am abusing it has no impact on my decision and shouldn't. Since I am not, they can't prove otherwise. More so for fatigue.

Next time, be a good boy, and drop your dad a few buck.

I think that is a bad suggestion.

If you are truly sick, DON'T FLY! If you are fatigued (or expect to be fatigued before landing; remember GWOE, we are our worst assessor of this), DON'T FLY!

Your statement (bolded above) is called "pilot pushing" and is exactly the objective of the company's ridiculous campaign to "track" sick leave. It appears there goal has been achieved, in your case, with your bolded opinion above. I encourage you to reevaluate your opinion.

The company trains us in GWOE and how dangerous we can be if we are sick, fatigued, dehydrated, overweight, etc., but when we apply this new (to some) knowledge, they can't figure out why sick leave usage is going up. Did they really think sick usage would go down when pilots were trained on the "unknown" hazards? Is Safety really paramount? :rolleyes:

If you are truly sick/fatigued, you have nothing to worry about (except the inconvenience of the harassment of the company). If you start getting harassed by the company, get ALPA involved, as they are tracking the harassment also.

The company is trying to fit all 4,300+ situations into a "one size fits all" solution (e.g. if a pilot calls in X number of times, he is obviously an abuser, because they think NOBODY can actually be sick that much). In reality, people get sick more often some years than others. Some get sicker as they age. Sometimes you are in the wrong place at the wrong time (car wreck, forced to go to a doctor's office with a bunch of sick people, just to get a doctor's note for a reason that doesn't require a doctors visit, sick kids/grandkids, sports injuries, etc.). What about the sodomizer and it's consequences? What about "less expensive" hotels where we can't good sleep? Age 65? Do they understand that there are many illnesses where a person might be able to do an "office job" but they are not capable of exercising the privileges of their Medical Certificate? Is any of this factored into their "perfected formula"? :confused:

I would suggest that a pilot that calls in excessively (by their standards) is a GREAT employee, because they are "doing the right thing" and not putting the company, fellow pilots and the freight in harms way, by doing the WRONG thing (flying sick/fatigued). If you run a business, your most valuable customers are those that complain, because they care enough to let you know what your problems are, so that you can correct them. Of course, I have no delusion management would ever see it this way.

If you are one of those rare people that "never get sick" (I envy you!!) and only use sick leave as a "scheduling tool", then you might have reason to use "great care". Otherwise, do the right thing for you, your family and your fellow pilots, and don't fly sick/fatigued!!

It is a shame people have to die to teach the rest of us hard lessons, especially when we already know what we should do. Think about UPS 1354. Let's not have a similar situation at FedEx.



.

^^Excellent post, Red Letter, I agree wholeheartedly. Those who are quaking in their shoes about their "report card" need to put on their big boy pants and do the right thing. If you're sick or fatigued, call in sick or fatigued. Worst thing that happens is that you'll have to get a letter from your doctor. Big deal. FedEx does not harass us like some of the other airlines do, at least not anymore. Nobody wants to fly with you when you're sick, and you prolong the misery of being ill or exhausted when you keep flying. I remember during my Capt upgrade way back when, the Vice President of Flight Ops said the #1 priority, is don't crash airplanes. Please don't crash airplanes. And after that, it's to get the freight there on time. Not flying sick or fatigued is part of not crashing airplanes.

Honestly, I haven't been given a hard time about any decision I have made in over 20 years, that I can think of. Then again, I've never missed a trip or shown up late, always scheduled deadheads with plenty of backups, nothing dicey. It's less stressful to work that way (though sometimes unexpected things happen), but for the most part, I think if you play it straight, you won't be spending much time worrying about your "report card".