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Old 07-02-2018, 03:58 AM   #1  
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Default Does helicopter 'double-I' grant a FW 'II'?

Hello World...

I have fixed wing instructor ratings and I am thinking (very hard) of getting a helo CFI.
But what I really need (want) is a 'double-I'.
Will my helicopter 'double-I' work as my fixed wing 'double-I'?
Or vice versa?
Or do I need to take 2 check rides?

I believe that my fixed wing instrument will not carry over to the helicopter either, will it?
Thanks!
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Old 07-02-2018, 06:03 AM   #2  
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Yes. Two checkrides and two knowledge tests. There is a separate knowledge test to add on the helicopter II to airplane II or the other way around. It is only 25 questions and you have an hour. There is no requirement for another knowledge test to add the helo rating to your airplane commercial. The test requirements to add a rating to an instructor certificate are found in 61.183(h).
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Old 07-02-2018, 06:27 AM   #3  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takingmessages View Post
Hello World...

I have fixed wing instructor ratings and I am thinking (very hard) of getting a helo CFI.
But what I really need (want) is a 'double-I'.
Will my helicopter 'double-I' work as my fixed wing 'double-I'?
Or vice versa?
Or do I need to take 2 check rides?

I believe that my fixed wing instrument will not carry over to the helicopter either, will it?
Thanks!
As an instructor, you may not always know the answer, but you know where to find it. You know that ecfr.gov will provide you with the code of federal regulations, and Title 14 will get you to the FAA regulation (aeronautics and space), in this case Part 61, so...

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...61_main_02.tpl

You'll be looking for 61.5, so...

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...61_15&rgn=div8

Your initial question is whether you'll need to take two checkrides. First, consider the ratings described in 61.5 (certificates and ratings issued under this part). You'll find that 61.5(b)(8) provides that instrument ratings are category-specific:

Quote:
(8) Instrument ratings (on private and commercial pilot certificates only)—

(i) Instrument—Airplane.

(ii) Instrument—Helicopter.

(iii) Instrument—Powered-lift.
You'll need a checkride (practical test) for the Instrument-Helicopter rating. You won't need to take another knowledge exam (written test).

Reading further, you'll look to ratings on flight instructor certificates, and you'll find 61.5(c), which tells you three things that are specific to helicopters (and your question), regarding the rating on your certificate:

Quote:
(c) The following ratings are placed on a flight instructor certificate when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and certification requirements for the rating sought:

(1) Aircraft category ratings—

(i) Airplane.

(ii) Rotorcraft.

(iii) Glider.

(iv) Powered-lift.

(2) Airplane class ratings—

(i) Single-engine.

(ii) Multiengine.

(3) Rotorcraft class ratings—

(i) Helicopter.

(ii) Gyroplane.

(4) Instrument ratings—

(i) Instrument—Airplane.

(ii) Instrument—Helicopter.

(iii) Instrument—Powered-lift.

(5) Sport pilot rating.
Clearly an instrument rating for a helicopter is class-specific: Instrument Helicopter.

Clearly a flight instructor qualification is category and class-specific: Rotorcraft, Helicopter.

Clearly instrument instructor privileges ("CFII") in a helicopter is class-specific as well, Instrument--Helicopter.

The question, then, is what you need have in order to hold flight instructor privileges, and instrument instructor privileges in a helicopter. If you'll be flying a Robinson product, you'll need additional time in type, thanks to the R-22 and R-44 having their own unique special flight regulation (SFAR). That gets expensive.

Turning to 61.183(c), you'll find the certification requirements:

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id..._1183&rgn=div8

Quote:
§61.183 Eligibility requirements.
To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating a person must:

(c) Hold either a commercial pilot certificate or airline transport pilot certificate with:

(1) An aircraft category and class rating that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought; and

(2) An instrument rating, or privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought, if applying for—

(i) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating;

(ii) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating;

(iii) A flight instructor certificate with a powered-lift rating; or

(iv) A flight instructor certificate with an instrument rating.
To hold a flight instructor certificate in helicopters, you need commercial helicopter pilot privileges on your commercial pilot certificate: Commercial Pilot, Rotorcraft, Helicopter. That requires a check ride.

You'll need an instrument class rating appropriate to helicopters: Instrument Helicopter. That requires a check ride.

You'll need a flight instructor certificate with category and class ratings: Flight Instructor, Rotorcraft, Helicopter. That will require a check ride.

You'll need an instrument rating on your flight instructor certificate that is category and class specific: Flight Instructor, Instrument Helicopter. That will require a check ride.

Depending on where you do your certification, some of these may be combined in on session, but technically on paper, two rides (and most examiners will want separate examiner fees for each qualification).

In addition, SFAR 73 specifies minimum flight experience (and Awareness Training) in the R-22 and R-44, which are the most common helicopter trainers:

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id....61.1&rgn=div9

Quote:
(b) Aeronautical Experience:

(1) No person may act as pilot in command of a Robinson model R-22 unless that person:

(i) Has had at least 200 flight hours in helicopters, at least 50 flight hours of which were in the Robinson R-22; or

(ii) Has had at least 10 hours dual instruction in the Robinson R-22 and has received an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph (b)(5) of this section that the individual has been given the training required by this paragraph and is proficient to act as pilot in command of an R-22. Beginning 12 calendar months after the date of the endorsement, the individual may not act as pilot in command unless the individual has completed a flight review in an R-22 within the preceding 12 calendar months and obtained an endorsement for that flight review. The dual instruction must include at least the following abnormal and emergency procedures flight training...:
Quote:
(2) No person may act as pilot in command of a Robinson R-44 unless that person—

(i) Has had at least 200 flight hours in helicopters, at least 50 flight hours of which were in the Robinson R-44. The pilot in command may credit up to 25 flight hours in the Robinson R-22 toward the 50 hour requirement in the Robinson R-44; or

(ii) Has had at least 10 hours dual instruction in a Robinson helicopter, at least 5 hours of which must have been accomplished in the Robinson R-44 helicopter and has received an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph (b)(5) of this section that the individual has been given the training required by this paragraph and is proficient to act as pilot in command of an R-44. Beginning 12 calendar months after the date of the endorsement, the individual may not act as pilot in command unless the individual has completed a flight review in a Robinson R-44 within the preceding 12 calendar months and obtained an endorsement for that flight review. The dual instruction must include at least the following abnormal and emergency procedures flight training—...
Both require a minimum of 20 hours dual, to solo.

For an instructor:

Quote:
(5) No certificated flight instructor may provide instruction or conduct a flight review in a Robinson R-22 or R-44 unless that instructor—

(i) Completes the awareness training in paragraph 2(a) of this SFAR.

(ii) For the Robinson R-22, has had at least 200 flight hours in helicopters, at least 50 flight hours of which were in the Robinson R-22, or for the Robinson R-44, has had at least 200 flight hours in helicopters, 50 flight hours of which were in Robinson helicopters. Up to 25 flight hours of Robinson R-22 flight time may be credited toward the 50 hour requirement.
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:22 PM   #4  
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Man, that is an EXCELLENT answer, something to learn from beyond my question.
I don't do aviation for a living, and I did search the regulations. but certainly didn't get there.
THANKS!
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Old 07-03-2018, 01:49 PM   #5  
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Unfortunately, the way the regulations are written, the information is there but often requires visiting multiple sources to get the picture. There are other regulatory systems that are not constructed like the Code of Federal Regulations, in legalese, but instead are written in a plain-language rendering. Much more user friendly.

It would be much better if the regulation came simplified, cross-referenced, with every day language, written more like a Q&A. Other countries do it. There is no reason why we couldn't do it that way, too.
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Old 07-05-2018, 06:34 AM   #6  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
Unfortunately, the way the regulations are written, the information is there but often requires visiting multiple sources to get the picture. There are other regulatory systems that are not constructed like the Code of Federal Regulations, in legalese, but instead are written in a plain-language rendering. Much more user friendly.

It would be much better if the regulation came simplified, cross-referenced, with every day language, written more like a Q&A. Other countries do it. There is no reason why we couldn't do it that way, too.
Whenever somebody says "Why can't we do ________?" my answer is almost always $$$. Doing this right would cost a lot. Doing it badly would be worse than useless.

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Old 07-05-2018, 09:29 AM   #7  
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That mentality costs dollars. Why can't we do it more efficiently? Better? There's every reason why we can. Other countries do it. Ever read aviation law in Britain? Australia?

Instead of stating that a first class medical is valid until the sixth month after the month of issuance, one could simply say it's good for six months, then is good for second class privileges. Then give an example.

It really costs nothing to simplify; the ground work is all there. The personnel are there. The regulation is defined, interpreted, and established. A plain english rendering is far more appropriate than the antiquated system we have.

It's nothing compared to the tax code. We all know how incredibly complex that is.
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Old 07-06-2018, 03:04 AM   #8  
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The Sport Pilot section of Part 61 was written in more of a Q&A and if/then format.
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Old 07-07-2018, 11:11 PM   #9  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takingmessages View Post
Hello World...

I have fixed wing instructor ratings and I am thinking (very hard) of getting a helo CFI.
But what I really need (want) is a 'double-I'.
Will my helicopter 'double-I' work as my fixed wing 'double-I'?
Or vice versa?
Or do I need to take 2 check rides?

I believe that my fixed wing instrument will not carry over to the helicopter either, will it?
Thanks!

One question I have is why?

This question coming from a dual rated CFI and CFII myself and currently just left my CFI job in Helis to focus on my other fixed wing CFI job.

Low time heli pilot jobs are hard to get right now and pay is next to nothing on top of that. Sure I love flying them but I know multiple people making the switch over to fixed wing for good reason. Even people well into their careers as a heli pilot.
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