Logging sim time - in general
 

I've heard a few different things. Does republic allow you to count 141 FTD sim time as total time? How about sim time from training at republic? And how much time do you get in the sim approximately

Who prescribes the logging of flight time?

It's not your airline.

It's your logbook.

Have you read the regulation?

A few times, but I dont want to have it in my log book and show up to have them say it doesnt count

Yes it does count towards your total time now. You must have it apart of an ABBI approved 141 college/class and have the statement of qualification for the sim. I believe it has to be a level 5 or above

Be very careful about sim time. As previous poster said, the sim needs to be qualified by the FAA. This is a lot more involved of a process than "well my CFI told me to log it." If you log it, you need to have the sim's serial number as approved by the FAA in your log, and it must be at least a level 6 FTD or full motion sim. Then, on top of that, the sim time must be toward a specific lesson under 141. It's very complicated.

There's one APD with Republic that heavily scrutinizes sim time. If you're saying 141 time counts, you better have a mountain of documentation to back it up. FAA sim quals, lesson plans, etc. If you've got type ratings and claiming sim time, that's a whole heck of a lot easier to legitimize than FTD time in flight school. Don't get caught short on your checkride day. Just food for thought!

Is there a reference I can use by chance?

How did you get this FAR without knowing?

61.64(a)(2)

I’d get the FTD serial number and a copy of the FAA approval letter which should have been displayed on the outside of the unit.
Also a copy of the 141 syllabus and the lessons should coincide with what you have in your logbook.

You shouldn’t have to teach a CFI how to log but your logbook should read something like this:

Date/FTD#12345/ Jepp 141 syllabus # 123/ Lesson 4 completed.

Next :
Appendix C to Part 141 - Instrument Rating Course

I don't put sim time in any other column in the logbook, than "simulator. I don't show it as total time, multi engine time, instrument time, or anything else. My simulator totals don't show up in any other column. It's there to record the training received, and nothing more.

Logging sim time is more like padding your logbook. You can log it; it's pilot time, technically, but personally I wouldn't log sim time as anything but sim time, and leave it out of your totals.

I’ve logged Level D Full Monty sim time and only that.
I’ve got it down as TT and SIM time and dual received and that’s it.
I log recurrent as dual received only.

CFR 61.159 (a)(6)
CFR 61.64 (a)(2)
AC 61-136B - **this is a bit more in depth than the FAR's. Read carefully. Pay close attention to where it mentions experience over tasks. They're two different things entirely.
Then there's some stuff buried in the FSIMS somewhere. Don't know exactly where, and too lazy to look. That's the APD's and examiner's guideline on certifying time.

If you plan on using the FTD time, I would bring so much documentation that it will be almost obnoxious for the APD to go through. Then still expect to be told it doesn't count. If you gather a bunch of documentation and it still doesn't look crystal clear to you, don't count it. If you aren't sure, contact training dept and ask for an interpretation. Better to be absolutely sure than uncertain when you get to checkride day. Speaking from experience...I had issues with sim time on my checkride day from previous work at a 142 school. Spent hours of anxiety and agony untangling the sim time mess.

This right here. After I got here I took all my SIM totals out of total time, even the E170 SIM which they said can be logged as such. Just too many headaches associated with trying to pass off SIM time as TT. Sure, it may be legal in some circumstances, but you need to know the regs like the back of your hand and you need to have ALL the documentation. I don't want to have to answer at some interview at a Major years down the line about some SIM entry years ago. Just not worth the headaches. And the few hours of time a SIM can add to your TT is just not worth it.

Now after saying all of that, if some SIM time can be used to get you past some entry requirement to Republic (like ME or IR time), then by all means do that. But then once you are in and past the checkride, I would take those away from your TT and just leave it as SIM time. Just not worth the headaches it may cause further down the road.

Exactly...sim time is absolutely not total time for ANY requirement. Sim time is sim time, and should ONLY be logged as simulator time alone. Was it night conditions in the sim? It's not night experience. Were the conditions IMC? It's not even simulated instrument experience. I know that sounds weird, but the way it's been beaten into my head from hours of reg reading and consulting those smarter than I about it. It's just simulator time, and nothing else. Should just be logged with the sim serial number, type like E170 SIM, under simulator time column only, and nothing else. All other categories of time (read: experience) are in actual airplanes only. Again, you're substituting actual experience for this time under a very specific regulation. This will make your logs much less ambiguous, and it's the proper way to account for this type of time. See attached for a pretty good guideline on how to log it properly. SIMD1036 is sim, level D, and 1036 is the serial number. Easy to reference.

I would keep it out of total time. It may count for FAA aeronautical experience but few or no employers want it mixed with flight/total time, in your book or your resume. Give it it's own column.

As others mentioned, it is NOT flight time. It can count INSTEAD of flight time towards aeronautical experience requirements.

If they find it mixed in your total time at an interview and you didn't make that crystal clear up front, you'll be shown the door.

Regarding regular sim time, I know the regulations allow it to be logged for currency without an instructor being present.

I read that the NPRM went into effect over the summer (July?) but when does the regulation take effect?

NPRM was issued two years ago. The changes were officially approved and published Jun 2018. The effective dates of the changes vary, you'll need to read the new rule for details.

I politely disagree.
It’s total aeronautical experience.
And if I can log the “landing” for currency requirements and I can log the “instrument approaches” for currency requirements then it would make no sense at all if I could not log the total time.

You absolutely can log it. I'm just saying it would be easier to break it out, and also might avoid friction at an interview if someone thinks you shouldn't mix it with total time.

It is experience. The regs allow you to count some sim time towards experience requirements. And they allow you to count landings and approaches flown in some sims toward currency. But part 1 defines flight time was when the "aircraft" first moves under its own power. A sim isn't an aircraft. I understand beginning pilots are desperate to reach time requirements. But once you reach 1500 hours no one cares. Or 1400 hours and 100 hours in approved sims. Beyond that it's hanger boasting. Says the guy with 22,600 hours and 400 hours in sims, not 23,000 hours.

When I posted this I didn't realize where I was posting this. I thought it was in the Republic forum. So now where I know what forum this is in, my advice would be a little different then to a Part 121 new hire.


For GA flying, getting ratings, and the most small time flying jobs you should have no issues with logging SIM time as total aeronautical experience when legal. Just make sure it is logged correctly (i.e. serial number, etc.) and you keep any required documentation and you should be fine.

For clarity, what we call "Total Time" does not exist in the FAR's, and is not officially defined anywhere.

It's usually best to log that in the manner to which employers are accustomed, just to avoid confusion.

But legally it can include sim time. Or "helping with the radios" time in a single-pilot plane. Or even passenger time in an airliner if you really wanted to :rolleyes:

Agreed.
You can log anything you like but you can’t count everything in furtherance of a certificate or rating.
I still fail to understand why a “major” would make such a fuss over something logged 10 years and three type ratings ago.

Total time is defined by its applicability/utility in the FAR's.
1. "Aeronautical Experience"
2. "Total Time as a Pilot"
3. "Flight Time"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.159

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retriev...n=14y1.0.1.1.1

For example, the aeronautical experience of a flight engineer allows 1500 hours of flight time to credit 500 hours (3:1) towards the "total time as pilot" needed for an ATP.

On the other hand, I hold a "Remote Pilot" license to pilot a UAS. The definition of flight time in Part 1 states:

"Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;"

so technically, I can pilot a drone and log it in a logbook as flight time. However, this aeronautical experience doesn't have any applicability towards "Total Time as a Pilot" for additional ratings.....at least at this time.

Your "total" of "pilot time" or "flight time" would be defined in the FAR.

But there's no definition of "Total Time" such as it is typically recorded in your logbook. Mine happens to be FAR flight time, with all sim in a separate column. You could include sim (of any sort) in "Total Time" and some people do.

The three terms:
1. "Aeronautical Experience"
2. "Total Time as a Pilot"
3. "Flight Time"
are mentioned in the FAR's with only "Flight Time" defined in FAR Part 1 "General definitions" key word being general. However, "Total Time as Pilot" is mentioned in the FARs and it is defined in detail in regards to its "legal" applicability toward a rating, recency of experience, etc.

"(c)Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part."

"(j)Aircraft requirements for logging flight time. For a person to log flight time, the time must be acquired in an aircraft that is identified as an aircraft under § 61.5(b)"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.51

Since the logbook is a legal document for demonstrating fulfillment of FARs, I would not treat it as a journal as you suggest. If the flight time is not relevant to your professional career, keep separate logbooks/journals for drone time, "radio operator time", "passenger time", etc. Make no mistake, it is a Legal document!

I disagree. Only time that's needed to meet FAR requirements for ratings, certs, privileges, or currency needs to be logged. Many older airline pilots don't log anything at all (currency records are maintained by the company). Many older non-airline pilots only log what they need for currency. As long as you don't try to pass it off as something it's not, the FAA doesn't care.

Only the part that's applicable to FAA requirements is a legal document, and I think they can only hold it against you if YOU try to represent the logged time for FAA requirements. Ie, I don't think they could subpoena your logbook and violate because something was logged improperly unless you used that logged time to fool the FAA.

Ie, they can't grab your logbook and violate you because it shows you weren't instrument current. What if you kept another logbook?

Employers might care however, often depends on the person doing the logbook review (who might have a particular opinion).

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...61_11&rgn=div8

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id....1_11&rgn=div8


https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id....1_11&rgn=div8

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...61_15&rgn=div8

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.51

"§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
Link to an amendment published at 83 FR 30277, June 27, 2018.
(a)Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(b)Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:

(1) General -

(i) Date.

(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a full flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.

(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device, as appropriate.

(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by § 91.109 of this chapter.

(2) Type of pilot experience or training -

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.

(v) Training received in a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device from an authorized instructor.

(3) Conditions of flight -

(i) Day or night.

(ii) Actual instrument.

(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.

(iv) Use of night vision goggles in an aircraft in flight, in a flight simulator, or in a flight training device.

(c)Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(d)Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.

(e)Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided -

(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation -

(1) Preflight preparation;

(2) Preflight procedures;

(3) Takeoff and departure;

(4) In-flight maneuvers;

(5) Instrument procedures;

(6) Landings and approaches to landings;

(7) Normal and abnormal procedures;

(8) Emergency procedures; and

(9) Postflight procedures;

(C) The supervising pilot in command holds -

(1) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and

(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.

(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot -

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

(f)Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

(g)Logging instrument time.

(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.

(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of § 61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook -

(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and

(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.

(4) A person may use time in a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for acquiring instrument aeronautical experience for a pilot certificate or rating provided an authorized instructor is present to observe that time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session.

(5) A person may use time in a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for satisfying instrument recency experience requirements provided a logbook or training record is maintained to specify the training device, time, and the content.

(h)Logging training time.

(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.

(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:

(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and

(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

(i)Presentation of required documents.

(1) Persons must present their pilot certificate, medical certificate, logbook, or any other record required by this part for inspection upon a reasonable request by -

(i) The Administrator;

(ii) An authorized representative from the

National Transportation Safety Board
; or
(iii) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.

(2) A student pilot must carry the following items in the aircraft on all solo cross-country flights as evidence of the required authorized instructor clearances and endorsements -

(i) Pilot logbook;

(ii) Student pilot certificate; and

(iii) Any other record required by this section.

(3) A sport pilot must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights.

(4) A recreational pilot must carry his or her logbook with the required authorized instructor endorsements on all solo flights -

(i) That exceed 50 nautical miles from the airport at which training was received;

(ii) Within airspace that requires communication with air traffic control;

(iii) Conducted between sunset and sunrise; or

(iv) In an aircraft for which the pilot does not hold an appropriate category or class rating.

(5) A flight instructor with a sport pilot rating must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights when providing flight training.

(j)Aircraft requirements for logging flight time. For a person to log flight time, the time must be acquired in an aircraft that is identified as an aircraft under § 61.5(b), and is -

(1) An aircraft of U.S. registry with either a standard or special airworthiness certificate;

(2) An aircraft of foreign registry with an airworthiness certificate that is approved by the aviation authority of a foreign country that is a Member State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation Organization;

(3) A military aircraft under the direct operational control of the U.S. Armed Forces; or

(4) A public aircraft under the direct operational control of a Federal, State, county, or municipal law enforcement agency, if the flight time was acquired by the pilot while engaged on an official law enforcement flight for a Federal, State, County, or Municipal law enforcement agency.

(k)Logging night vision goggle time.

(1) A person may log night vision goggle time only for the time the person uses night vision goggles as the primary visual reference of the surface and operates:

(i) An aircraft during a night vision goggle operation; or

(ii) A full flight simulator or flight training device with the lighting system adjusted to represent the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise.

(2) An authorized instructor may log night vision goggle time when that person conducts training using night vision goggles as the primary visual reference of the surface and operates:

(i) An aircraft during a night goggle operation; or

(ii) A full flight simulator or flight training device with the lighting system adjusted to represent the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise.

(3) To log night vision goggle time to meet the recent night vision goggle experience requirements under § 61.57(f), a person must log the information required under § 61.51(b)."

I guess you can make an argument that for non FAA required entries, your logbook falls under freedom of speech. Although, a "sloppy logbook" with odd ball entries is in my opinion not a good idea! As for me, I'll hang my hat on what the FAR's say. This is especially important for pilot's in the stage of their careers when their logbooks will face certain scrutiny ie: Interviews, additional ratings, etc.

Absolutely, I'm a huge advocate of keeping a traditional logbook just to make it easy with potential employers and examiners. But legally that's not required, and nothing in your logbook has any legal bearing until YOU make a positive representation that the logged time is to be applied to an FAA requirement (usually by signing an 8710).

This is different from say a trucker's logbook, which he has to carry with him, present when asked, and all entries must be correct. Student pilot solo is the only time this applies to pilots.

The FAA can ask you to prove currency if they have doubts, but they can't violate you if it's not in your logbook. As long as you logged your currency on a napkin that's wadded up in the glovebox of your car, you're good.

"Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:"

The question is, what's "acceptable" or rather what is unacceptable?