BS in Aeronautics or Flight School?
 

Hello everyone, I recently enrolled in Embry Riddle where I'm taking 3 online courses to get a feel for college. I know that aside from getting my Bachelors Degree in Aeronautics that I'll need to log in flight time starting with my Privates and working my way up to Instrumental, Multi-engine then finally Commercial.

My goal is to try to achieve all this within the next three years instead of the traditional four years by going to school full time including summer with the end game of becoming an expat Flight Officer for either Xiamen Air or Juneyao Airlines based off in China, where I know their starting salaries for FOs is $10k/month.

My question is should I focus my attention on racking debt in Embry Riddle for my Bachelors Degree or should I pursue a more direct approach and just go to flight school? Is so, which flight school would you recommend and why?

I've done some research of my own on PPRuNe on the experience's of being a foreign pilot in China and I'm up for the challenge but before that, I would like to create a roadmap on how to get there.

EDIT: I'm willing to get into maximum $100k in student loan debt, which is something I'm not looking forward to, but will do in a heartbeat if it'll guarantee my chances of getting hired in China.

Why do you want to go to China? Also I don't think they are looking for wet commercials

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

An aviation degree is scarcely worth the paper its printed on. The expense you'll go to at riddle is most definitely not worth it, and it will not give you any advantage or leg up.

Get the aviation degree if you want, and go to ERAU if you want. If you have money to burn, why not.

If you have other priorities than burn money and gain a reputation as a trust fund kid, you might consider other options.

As for flying in China...you haven't done the research that you think you've done.

I think your plan of being hired by airline in China with a wet commercial and BS degree is ill informed.

Are you a USA citizen?

Please research the requirements for employment overseas more thoroughly before going into debt.

I think you should probably look at the CNY to USD and HKD to USD conversion rates before making this decision

Do you have any idea how much interest you'd be paying over the life of that loan?

If you were thinking about flying for a US airline:

Someone on this forum suggesting getting the flight training first, getting to a regional, then get your four-year degree online while working at the regional. It is an idea worth considering.

If you were thinking about flying for a Mainland China airline:

You MUST talk this over with those airlines first. If not, you may be making a terrible mistake.

Many Mainland Chinese airlines train their pilots at Aeroguard Flight Training in the Phoenix, Arizona area. I even saw a photo on the wall inside the Aeroguard Flight Training building of the time the Chinese FAA paid them a visit. It might help you a lot to talk to those people.

Many of the chinese students training in the US show up with a 99 year contract to their airline, whether they make it as a pilot or not.

wouldn’t it still be valid in other places in the aviation industry? I’d assume so at least. I know the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency is hiring graduates and is accepting Aeronautical and Professional Pilot degrees to be an Aeronautical Intel analyst

It is all up to the company that hires you. I believe UPS and FedEx require it. But other airlines do not. Decide which airline you want to work for (for example, China Eastern) and then find out if they require a four-year degree. (I would be shocked if China Eastern or Xiamen hired you without a four-year degree.)

Do you speak fluent Chinese? If not, then I think an airline like China Eastern will only hire you if are already a qualified pilot on a large airliner.

Because with the world wide pilot shortage and China being one of the biggest upcoming economies. They're willing to pay pilots between $10,000/$30,000 USD (after taxes) wages a month. I'm still doing more research to see if they'll consider "wet commercial" pilots.

I'm not a trust fund kid, I don't have the money to burn but I know I have the option to finance this with student loans. As for being a foreign airline pilot in China, I'm still doing research on PPRuNe seeing the pros and cons and so far it seems doable if I focus on my main objective.

Yes I'm a naturalized US Citizen, and I probably am ill-informed at the moment that's why I'm trying to get as much information as I can. I rather use student loans to pay for flight hours and ground school that'll get me closer to the 1500 hours, then go into debt getting a BS in Aeronautics.

From what many online sources say they're referring to USD

https://money.cnn.com/2016/11/15/new...gn-pilots-pay/

I haven't signed for any loans yet but yes fixed rate between 3.76 to 4.66 APR :|

Get a job at a regional or Part 135 operator, then start your four-year degree. I know someone at Ameriflight who is doing this very thing right now.

Finally, someone replies back to my question! Thank you PT6 Flyer!! I will definitely reach out to someone at Aeroguard Flight Training in Phoenix.

I personally prefer that route and go through flight training, then possibly wasting money and time getting a degree in Aeronautics first.

I'm trying to contact someone at Xiamen Air to see what requirements they look for in recruiting new pilots. I don't want to go through a hiring agency like Bernoulli because I know long term I'll be paying for their fees with a portion of my paycheck and I definitely don't want to apply with a wet commercial's so I want to rack up 1500 hours as quickly as possible to at least qualify for a FO position.

Great, I still have time to drop my classes in ERAU without getting penalized. Although I do think that I should at least take ASCI254 (Aviation and the Role of Government) to get a start on learning about the industry.

I'm currently stationed in Yokosuka Japan, so I won't be going to flight school until I'm back in the state's summer 2019 but I at least can brush up on good reading material.

99 Year Contracts sound insane I can understand 99 year property leases like the one that Great Britain had in Hong Kong back in 1989. From the research that I've done for foreign pilots in China the majority of contracts are renewable every three years. At least with Xiamen Air, which is the airlines that I'm particularly interested in.

Don't waste your time. Aeroguard is nothing more than the former Transpac Academy, a third rate certificate mill where chinese airlines sent their indentured slaves to get a certificate and a taste of aviation before reeling them back for a lifetime commitment. You going there won't get you a bit closer to working in China, not that you should.

Your original post sounded more like a high school student considering options. Your more recent post suggests you're in the service, which means that you can take ERAU online or in person for considerably less than others, which would make a lot more sense. Context is everything. That being the case, you'll actually be ahead to crank out as many credits as you can right now, whether you elect to finish with ERAU or not.

ERAU credits are discounted for me like if I were a service member but I'm not active duty nor am I a vet. My wife is active duty here & I'm just a GS contractor. By the time we're back in the states, I'll be 29 years old and we're still deciding which state to move back to. In the meantime, I know that I can knock out as many ERAU online classes as I can in my downtime but I want to know if I should continue towards my bachelor's degree in aeronautics or should I just jump straight into flight training.

My wife and I have considered the thought of living abroad and starting a new life in a different county so that's where China comes to mind since pilot salaries there are the highest in the world and since we're close to there being here in Japan.

If you've got the price break and the time, I'd go full steam ahead and knock out as much as you can while you're there. You can't start flight training yet, as you've indicated, and you have the opportunity to do the degree. Regardless of what you do with a flying career, you should nail down the degree; get as much done as you can now. Do the general electives: you can always transfer those just about anywhere else if you decide to change majors.

In the meantime, find a copy of Barry Schiff's The Proficient Pilot, and read it.

Thanks John, I will definitely look for that book and start reading it. While I'm here in Japan I'll take advantage of the aeronautics-related classes ERAU has to offer online. Since I'm thinking about nine months in advance. There is a strong possibility that we might move back to Washington DC where my wife last command was or our home state of Florida where the only flight school that I've visited was PEA (Phoenix East Aviation) in Daytona Beach. Do you have any personal recommendations for either place?

Like it was mentioned earlier, if you're affiliated with the military (dependent, etc), there's options for you. I don't know what branch or what base/post you are stationed, what I do know is that Yokota AB and Kadena AB have aero clubs. You don't necessarily have to wait until you come back stateside, you can start taking lessons and knock out some classes. I would suggest that you look into what type of support facilities are available at your place. You never know...

We're affiliated with the Navy in CFAY Base. Prior to enrolling into ERAU I did seek out my options here. Kadena AB is over a thousand miles away from here so not an option and as Yokota Flight Training is tailored more for military personnel not dependants nor civilian contractors.

I can go there for my Part 61 Privates License only Part 141 is strictly reserved for vets and active duty only. I'm still considering maybe going for my Part 61 Privates but I don't know if I should hold off and instead focus on going towards Part 141 since I plan on going for my Instrumental, Multi-engine IFR then Commercials

Money isn't everything. QOL is a huge factor that I guarantee US airlines do better at

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

Yes I agree that QOL is more important than money, but money plays a factor when it comes down to it. With more income one has more options to live in a better neighborhood, access to greater health care, give your children an excellent education, etcetera...

My biggest concern QOL in China is the air pollution which is why I would prefer to fly for Xiamen Air in Xiamen City, because its the second cleanest providence in China.

I meant QOL as in airline QOL. How trips pay, days off, schedule, types of trips, hotel quality, etc.

1st year starting pay in the US isn't much lower for the legacies. It's like 88/hr if I remember correctly

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

Based on the information that I read on other forum's Xiamen Captains make $300/hour, get 48 hours of rest for every 4 days of flights, the majority of flights are domestic with some international flights within southern Asian neighboring countries and because of Xiamen higher flight fairs the hotel's accommodations are 4-5 star.

I don't want to sound like I'm promoting them but this is what I've read from different sources. I couldn't find much information about FO's except their starting salaries.

I have a preference for Part 61 training, in which the training is less structured and more able to be tailored to the student, at the student's pace.

Regarding ERAU, if you're sure you'll pursue their aviation degree, then take the core classes; if you may transfer your training to another school when you get home (largely for cost), take the general ed classes, because their core program may or may not transfer.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/273231452...side-Down-pdf#
Read this, it’s called Flying Upside Down and it’s a book written by an expat pilot that went to China.

Just looking at salaries is a poor way to pursue a job. The number of U.S. who are competitive in the U.S. and choose to fly in China instead is a very small number. Very small. Probably one in thousands, especially for guys starting out.

If you can get your PPL now I’d recommend knocking it out. Knock off as many core courses as you can. I’ve recommending going the flying route first and getting your degree while at a regional airline. With some general courses knocked out, and an ATP, you can get an online from an aviation college fairly easily (60-80 credits?) while flying for a regional.

The path to the majors in the U.S. takes 8-10 years. By going to the regionals first you might knock off two years. The additional two years at the end of your career are worth over $450,000 per year and perhaps over $600,000. It takes that long from leaving the starting gate to being really competitive. The pilot supply shortage might reduce that time.

I wonder, and worry, about people that think they’ve discovered a secret way to rapidly become rich, or get into a big airliner. And if you get a flight academy slot at one of their flight schools you’re looking at years with that company or having to repay them. Why not get the experience on your own and have the freedom of choosing where, and for whom, you work vs. being stuck with one company?

Xiamen has a number of students training at AeroGuard (at Deer Valley Airport). I suggest you walk in the front door at AeroGuard and just start asking questions. But I want to repeat that I think they would only hire a low-time pilot from Chinese citizens in China who speak fluent Chinese. And, are you ready to follow their strict rules? Students must live in the apartments near Deer Valley Airport and are not allowed to travel anywhere or drive a car! (A shuttle van takes them to and from the airport.)

Yokota (not Yokosuka) has a Flying Club. Is there any way you could get posted there and take flying lessons there?

I want to change something I said earlier. If you were already a qualified pilot in, for example, a B-777 or A-340, I am sure any airline in China would love to hire you, without a four-year degree, and without learning Chinese.

I highly recommend you read that book Flying Upside Down mentioned earlier in this thread. It is very accurate.

You misunderstood what we were talking about. We were specifically referring to an aeronautics/aviation flight technology/professional pilot degree.

I think you should first start with the private pilot textbook by a company called Jeppesen:

https://www.amazon.com/Private-Pilot.../dp/0884872386

This book is a textbook that focuses on the fundamentals of being a pilot, and you need to learn these fundamentals first.

The add says you can pick up a used copy for as little as $3! Does Yokosuka have a thrift store? A used book store? There might be one in there.

Read that book cover to cover. Then let us know if you have any questions. (This is how I first got started as a pilot many years ago.)

You have also asked where to do flight training. Choose a place that has nice weather. If you choose a place that has bad weather, you may find yourself spending many days when you are unable to do flight training because of bad weather (wasting time and money).

The 4 on, 2 off schedule can be brutal. Go visit the Piedmont airlines threads and ask them about how 4 on 2 off is (vast majority of their schedules are built like that).

If you were to stay in America, you would be making only slightly less per hour, but will work significantly less. There are wide body captains in the US on reserve who make over 200k a year and literally never get called (read: don't need to go to work)

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

I think you misunderstood the message I tried to convey. I'm not telling you to Drive 1000 miles in any direction. All I was saying is to do some research in and around your installation because I know other places in Japan that have aero clubs and maybe they're might be one close by. As for whether you should wait because its part 61 or 141, get your PPL part 61. You can knock it out at your own pace and you will probably have it way before you return. It doesn't really matter at the beginning which you start training. If you intend to couple it with a degree, getting your instrument rating and Commercial single 141 would be the route to go.

I did part of my flight training at Yokota Aero Club and I was not active military. No problem. They were happy to take my money. I flew their 172RG and they were VERY happy to take my money. (But this was before 9/11 so maybe things have changed.)

Yes! I am currently reading it right now. In PPRuNe forum where others have read it, say that Capt. Duke experience was awful because he flew for Tianjin Airlines which most compare to flying for Spirit Airlines. That's why for now I'm leaning specifically for Xiamen Air which I haven't seen mentioned in the book yet.

I look forward to finishing it so I can draw my own conclusions. So far I already expected that being an American living in China would be an extreme culture shock regarding privacy concerns and limited access to the internet.

Yes after talking to multiple people on this forum I'm considering focusing my attention more on getting my PPL and working my way up to each rating. I'm not sure if pursuing an Aeronautics degree will help me get closer to my ultimate goal but until I can start flight training I'll keep myself busy with taking core college credits that can be transferred towards my flight training like math and english. I know that because of the 1500 rule to fly for airlines is going to take me about 3 to 4 years with over $300,000 worth of flight hours. Flying for a regional airlines is most likely what I will be doing for the first 2 to 3 years, we'll see where the industry takes me. I wouldn't say that I expect to get rich quick flying for Xiamen in China because I'm sure by the time I'm able to get qualified to fly B-777 or A-340 their hiring requirements might change where they'll no longer have the need for foreigners to join but it is a goal that would be interesting in trying to achieve. I'm sure that if I achieve those flying experiences I'll have more options to fly for multiple airlines closer to home for over $125,000/year.