Shoutout for good, bad, ugly flight schools
 

Looking to possibly send my college graduate son to a "program" flight school. He has his PPL, less than a year from a local flight school. I think he would do better in a more structured environment that would provide a better path to a regional (when that becomes feasable). Any word from those of you who went this path, the school , location etc, If it was bad and you'd rather not put it out on the forum, PM me. Currently looking at AeroGuard, know nothing about them, just currently on my radar.

Changed because I didn’t read the question well enough, sorry.

I trained at ATP Mesa gateway. Wouldn’t recommend because of price and some instructors simply don’t care about their students and were there only to get hours. Also not standardized, it’s all teach yourself and have minimal ground time.

I instructed at Aeroguard from September 2018-February 2020 and left for an airline shortly before covid got bad. Taught all foreign cadets but their program is much more structured and they now partner with Liberty University and operate as a 141 school for US students. Don’t know how things are going there now but from what I understand if you complete the program they will offer you a job instructing after. Prior to covid they had 90-100 instructors and 400-500 students. From a few contacts I still have left there, there about about 20 instructors. Many were laid off following covid. No new foreign students and the only hiring happening is from graduating students. If you want the contact info of the recruiter let me know. Any other questions you have feel free to send me a pm.

Quite the multi-level marketing scheme going on. Has anyone actually run the numbers before diving into this.

"So we will train you up, and when youre done all you need to do is find 7 trainees and you can vecome an instructor here. Then when each of them are done training they can become instructors after finding 7 more new trainees of their own.....and so it goes".

Getting trained by the least qualified in the industry to do so.

This is how most flight schools operate these days. ATP did the same thing pre covid advertising a guaranteed CFI job after graduation. Since most schools aren’t hiring CFI’s right now, having somewhere to build time and gain experience is a contributing factor when choosing a school. Aeroguard hired me after completing my training. Yes I was new, but safe. Maintained a solid pass rate and never had an incident or accident in 1530 hours. Same with all the students I sent solo.

yeah its been happening for a long time...... which makes me wonder how many CPL holders are out there who arent employed. 7^n years worth.

Good work on getting out in Feb to a regional! A real man would have left it till March.:D

Oh the regional I went to sent me home in March. Does that make me a real man?

My recommendation would be a small mom and pop FBO flight school with an older CFI who is retired IE not trying to build time to go to a regional. If you find the right place, the training will be 100x better than the big pilot mills and half the price.

That sux......but youll be back.

second. Filler

Yep. This. Some Part 61 programs are quite structured, particularly at schools where the instructors don't rotate out every six months.

I third this. Don't do it.

As someone who flies with A LOT of 141 factory pilots: on average, they are below the 61 guys and the pilots who did something else other than instruct at their 141 factory (cargo, bush, gliders, drone escort, etc.). The 141 schools are TOO structured. The pilots aren't allowed to think for themselves with their dispatch and ops dictating which airports they can fly to and when. The students don't develop any critical thinking skills, risk management, or flying skills outside of their limitations. When they show up at Indoc, they've flown a 172, a few hours in an Arrow, a few hours in a Seminole and they've touched down at maybe half a dozen different airports. That's it. They don't know what STOL is, never heard of Reno, have no idea what a taildragger is, and ****ed themselves during the half hour of spin training for their CFI.

And some of them have unbelievable arrogance because they come from the "famed" UND or Riddle with laughable degrees in Aeronautical "Science" yet they can't calculate the crosswind component using high school trig and calculator.

Save yourself a lot money; buy your kid a Champ, a tent, sleeping bag, and a bunch of sectional charts. Kick him out of the nest to learn about the real world with a couple of 2000 mile x-countries. Use the rest of the money for a real degree in accounting or software engineering. Or even art history so we can have an intelligent conversation at cruise.

^ This.

I've instructed at both 141 and 61. The 61 op was just as structured as the 141, but that's also how I wanted it for my students so they had some sort of a curriculum to follow and knew what to expect. It was also cheap which is a plus for mom, dad, and student.

I don't think it should be just Part 61 as a blanket statement. You have to do your research and know exactly who you're hiring as an instructor. There are a lot of really great instructors that genuinely love to teach. But FBO's also have some serious duds. I was a helo guy with civilian and mil time and wanted to get my fixed wing add ons. I didn't want to do the RTP stuff though. I shopped around until I found a knowledgeable instructor who would challenge me to be better everyday.

Yeah this is an important point. It's critical to choose a good CFI before committing to any program. Usually you can tell pretty quickly how things will go just by talking to em.

Thanks for the input from my question. I have mixed feeling about how my son was training at a local flight school that is both big, expensive and training both 61 and 141. I never met his instructor, I made a decision to try to stay as hands off in deference to both instructor and son. He got his PPL, so the square was filled. The details I get in quizzing my son about the how and why's, well I think the job could have been better. I'm a long dormant CFII but very current otherwise. I can teach him, if it works for us both, but I'm willing to pay and able to pay for someone with the knowledge, desire and resources to it, if I believe it will be done right.

The cost of the "academies" is pretty outrageous, but as someone who was paying as little as $16 for a 150 in 1977, everything seems pricey. I told him I think he needs a structured training program, better focus, time concentrated, all of which points away from local 61 with dad or another instructor (that I vet) and more to sending him out of town. So I'm weighing all options. Since I walked the path, I know the pitfalls of not being properly prepared, not just have the tickets but being ready when ( I hope) some regional puts him in a class and than firehoses a training program at him.

I had a similar route. Local flight school for PPL, and then ATP for the rest of my ratings. While my experience with ATP was a positive one (especially compared to what a lot of other folks have to say), those places are very hit or miss with the quality of instruction given. I was one of the lucky ones. Even with my “luck,” it was extraordinarily expensive.

My biggest piece of advice - if he goes that route - is to avoid the “guaranteed instructor job” once he completes the program. It’s a tempting path of least resistance, but he will be making poverty wages and working hellish hours. Encourage him to be flexible and willing to relocate if possible, and he will be able to make a much more comfortable - perhaps even lucrative - living while he’s working towards airline minimums.

Speaking of academies, have you considered military options? Not the right fit for everyone, but great for some.

Well, training him yourself sounds like a great bonding experience. Buy a plane, work on his instrument and commercial and build time. You could expose him to crm and the concept of 2 pilot ops.You two could travel the country building time and experience for a fraction of the cost of a embry or und degree

stay away from L3

Yes my thoughts too. Could be a great experience. I looked at a (POS) 172, pre COVID. 60K, I wouldn't let anyone I like fly in it, let alone my son or self. I would be very amicable to leasing a newer aircraft with an advanced cockpit, aka Garmin 1000, but I don't know whether 200-300 hours leases are doable for SE aircraft.

Well you are looking in the wrong place. You are not going to get your airliner grade equipment for that price. But good research and a solid pre buy you could get a descent rig for 40-60k. Put your time on it and sell it
Best of luck with your lease idea but even if you did the rate for a 800k cirrus or mooney ain't gonna be cheap.

That's the myth people like perpetuate but the truth is that lifer CFIs can make some of the worst instructors. They have long lost touch what it is like to be new to flying. At the mom and pop shop I used to teach at the "older" CFIs would find any excuse not to fly with their student and do ground instead. Why leave the comfy confines of the FBO for a cramped 152 you've spent 1000 hours in? They had many 75 to 100+ hour PPLs while my students were getting theirs 45 - 55 hours.

I agree you're likely to get a cheaper price here. You could get better training but I'd like to point out that the lack of organization and structure that is typical of the described scenario can be a problem for some.

I also taught both 141 (at first) and then 61 (later). My part 61 was also very structured with documented curriculum and constant follow ups to keep students on track. I didn't meet another part 61 instructor that was that structured though. But that was 20 years ago. Maybe things have changed. When someone says part 61 instruction at a mom and pop FBO I tend to think of some old geezer as CFI hanging out on the weekends mainly to do rental checkouts but has an occasional private student who when he shows up "hey, let's go fly".

Highly recommend UND Aerospace Phoenix. PM for details.

lol und oh no way! My favorite pilots to run into. It’s like talking with a vegan Crossfiter, they shout it as soon as they walk in the room. Don’t get a useless aviation degree. Get something that your kid can use when the industry is down or gone, ya know flying cars and all. Separate from the degree go and do the flying stuff. If your kid can do some active duty in the military he can get Uncle Sam to pay for a fantastic flight training program at a community college. If you do it right they pay for the tuition, flight fees, and give him a housing stipend as well.
if he doesn’t want to play soldier, do what was stated earlier, buy a mid range Cessna and fly around the country with your kid teaching him how to be a good aviator. Those are experiences and memories you would both cherish for the rest of your life.

If I did it all over again, I'd enlist in the air force in an IT field. Learn everything I can for at least 36 months, then get out and use post 9/11 GI bill at a university with a flight program. Get my licenses and IT certs at the same time. Maybe even join a ANG unit and put in for a UPT slot every chance I got.

Hindsight 20/20.

PM sent...

This is what I’ve done, except I was in the service for 9 years during the lost decade. I say have your son join the military, either go the commissioning route to fly or just 36 months of service in a field where he can gain some backup skill sets and get the GI BILL.

After that, recommend him to to use the GI BILL to get the remainder of his ratings and check the degree box. Plus side to that, by the time he is finished with all that, the industry hopefully will have shaken out.

The new hires I’ve seen struggle the most were all UNDies. Unless you want a huge bill and min hours accumulated in a highly controlled pattern.

^^That. Also, take a look at Auburn for their aviation program. Last I checked, they graduate guys with a business degree instead of the usual generic aviation/pro pilot degree. That would be a good backup strategy and is what I kinda wish I’d done with the GI Bill.

To add to the above. Be cautious with self employed CFI’s as there are some out there that choose that path because they’re unemployable.
Personality issues.....dings on their records.
They keep afloat by conning people just long enough. Play the ace of the base with their “Ive never had a student fail” spiel.
Yep, haven’t finished one this year either.
Problem with self employed is there in no one to hold them accountable.
Find a local FBO with decent airplanes, decent syllabus and decent reliable instructors and train part time.
Fly trips with your son and don’t be afraid to go out of state for fun stuff like mountain flying courses or glacier flying in Alaska or a Seaplane rating in Key West or a Glider rating in the Rockies.
I’d avoid your own plane like the plague.

As a self employed flight instructor I agree with what you said. Be sure to interview them thoroughly! I work part time at a 141 school as well as freelance on the side working with aircraft owners and a couple of FBO renters. For me I have a genuine passion for flying and love teaching. However, I know another guy that is trying to free lance and couldn't keep his job at the same 141 school. Just be vigilant and don't be afraid to shop around for the right instructor. Remember you are the one that is going to be paying them a few thousand dollars. It is up to you the student to hold them accountable. I ask all of my students to ask as many questions as they can think of before we get started. With all of that said finding a CFI who takes pride in their craft and genuinely cares about all of their students are worth their weight in gold.

I bought my own plane to teach and build time in when I finished my CFII. It had its high and low points, but overall it was worth it and I sold it for about what I had into it. Now I am looking at buying something a little bigger and faster for the family.

I went to liberty through a flight affiliate. 141 program, nice planes. I found 2 good instructors. R-ATP is nice to shave off 500 hours

Now just waiting for the next wave to do get hired on. Until then.....out of the game in a separate career

Coming from a current UND student, I can say that many of my classmates struggle from a lot of the aforementioned problems (inability to think critically, lack of real-world experience, etc.). I did my private pilot training in a 61 environment and I’m very glad that I was able to get that kind of experience. I’ve done the rest of my training (instrument-CFI) at UND and there is a very significant difference in how things are taught. The strict rules and regulations put in place are used to limit the possibility of incidents/accidents, but as others have already mentioned, they DO NOT let students think for themselves. The typical scenarios of training are molded into situations where the student is always comfortable and it’s almost never something unfamiliar to them. This has proven to be very detrimental in how they learn, especially when it’s taught from a private pilot level, up to CFI/II. I will definitely agree the guaranteed instructor gig is very controversial because these problems get passed down to students, allowing this mindset to continue. Ideally, I would like to get my time in a different environment that exposes me to real situations, instead of the usual TCO requirements that are given to us. To be fair, the resources available to us, like highly advanced avionics, simulators, and training software are very useful and I feel lucky to have them, but it’s arguable if these actually outweigh the cons associated with large aviation schools. My personal advice, go with the part 61 experience, as I think this will be the most enjoyable route and I think if you find the right school/instructor you will have a great time.

I'm glad to see a lot of younger, recent grads from flights schools and junior pilots at regionals weighing in on training. As a graybeard on my way out, I can relate to what I think is relevant to airline ops, at least as my employer does business. Some on here are sons and daughters of professional pilots and I'm sure your parents had similar concerns about the quality and structure of your aviation education. For many of us, we can and will happily pay the (inflated) costs associated with a structured academy training of university aviation program, if we feel it is worth it. What we fear and are trying hard to avoid is not just wasting money on a poorly run/unprofessional flight environment, but the legacy that that type training will cause for our junior aviator.
I was quoted 82 to 85K from one of the academy schools for after PPL to multi/CFI. I'd gladly pay it if I'm sure the product is as professional and well prepared for the airline training (I hope) he will have a chance to experience. I realize it's ultimately about the individual and their wilingness to learn and overcome various problems unique to aviation flight training. I'm will to investigate, ask and see what and how my son would be treated before writing a big check. Up to this point, I've been disappointed in what I've heard and seen.

Sim time
 

PHX area pilots. I'm looking for 2 volunteers to fly a sim and then fill out a survey after. I need one pilot who is instrument rated or working on their instrument rating (C172 time preferred). I also need one pilot who has at least 100 hours of BE58 time and is instrument rated. Plan on at least 2 hours. Go to website (simtime.net) to contact. Thank you

simguy
 

Suppose I should give my pence to the original post before shamelessly advertising. My first question to any flight school/CFI is how long to solo? 20 hours, tops. If they say it depends on the individual then leave. Students fail because of poor instruction, full stop. My other question would be how much the sim is utilized. Most will say not at all for pre-solo/private. I use to solo students in the A36 Bonanza for an international carrier. These kids didn't even know how to drive a car. This was accomplished in less than 20 hours and I believe it was due to utilizing a sim throughout the training. 2 sim sessions for every flight from the very beginning until commercial. I believe most flight schools don't utilize or don't know how to utilize the sim. The other big factor is CFI "time builders" don't want to be in a sim. In the right hands the sim is a scalpel knife that will get amazing results. If you are ever in the PHX area give me call (simtime.net). More shameless advertising. If your in the N.W. checkout "ONE G." They are the only simulator center for GA pilots that I know of. Good luck.

Well, if you are doing 2 sims for every hour of flight, that would be more like 60 hours, no?