ATP CFI program
 

Is it really possible to obtain not one but three CFI licenses in 15 days? And be a competent instructor? It just seems like a ot of info to process in such a short period of time.

It's Possible. People do it everyday...... Contrary to popular belief it's possible.... Now after this post you're going to hear probably 100 reasons why people don't think it's possible. Trust me it's possible!!! It's all about you!

Sure isn't.

It's possible to get the certificates but you definately will not be a competent instructor. All you will have done is memorize the books.

Told Ya!!!!! It can take you a year go get your CFI and you'll still not be a Competent Instructor. So don't listen to the BS, Go get your CFI and began instructing, You'll get there!

A competent instructor comes with time and experience, where it really comes down is how you can teach people how to flying safely which is not an easy task. Lesson Planning, Knowing how to adapt to your students, etc etc.

* I think when it comes to the CFI rating it should take more than 15 days to acquire. does ATP make you guys create Lesson Plans from the Private Course all the way to CFI/II? I dont think that would be feasible in 15 days.

A professor I know always jokes that CFI stands for Certified Friggin' Idiot. Sadly for many of those fast track guys it is true. Why not just take the time to learn how to apply and correlate the knowledge rather than just memorize the books? It's only going to benefit you and your students in the end. If you're going to spend the money anyway at least make it worthwhile. Like my old man says "if something is worth doing then do it right the first time."

Lesson plans took me about 3 weeks. Of course that was during school so maybe it can be done quicker.

Because being at a major yesterday isn't fast enough for the new 'me' generation and only fools build time any other way than being hired at a regional with 300-500 tt. :rolleyes:

So I guess you went through the Fast track program and you memorized the Book? YOU PEOPLE HAVE NO CLUE WHAT GOES ON AT ATP AND HOW THEY CONDUCT THEIR OPERATIONS..... I honestly think you should stop talking about it.
Ok spend your money stay in CFI school for a year "that'll be worthwhile I guess?" Or spend your money Stay in CFI school for a few weeks and boom you're out making money gaining hours....
You should know MOST of the stuff you need to know before Entering CFI school Anyway. If you know your stuff from all your Other ratings it shouldn't take you a year to learn how to teach it to someone else anyways..... No school can prepare you for your First Private student that tries to kill you. You have to know your stuff from your training and be able to be safe with students..... Point is you learn with experience, you can't be taught exprience.

In a short time from now someone will comment on my time. Ok I got 125.3 hours, just got my instrument rating today. I don't know everything, all i'm saying ATP is a good place to go, a good place to get your CFIs. Do what you want to do and don't listen to this MESS on this Forum!

I never said that I went through a fast track program. You sure do like to interpret posts incorrectly don't you? All I'm saying is you are doing yourself and your students an injustice by going though and just doing rote memorization. Anyway how would you know what it takes to teach? I doubt you hold a CFI certificate with your 160 hours or whatever it is, even under 141 I find it impossible. Maybe once you get your CFI in 15 days then you have a student try to kill you because you can't teach them effectively you'll realize that you only sold yourself short by not learning how to teach properly. Or maybe I should just listen to you, since I don't know anything :rolleyes: . After all you do go to ATP.

Told you someone would mention my Time LOL.....
Sir you said I was just saying you must have been through a Fast track program to know that you just memorize the books????? Again in this post you said, Again you have exprience at going through 15day CFI programs?? You can go to CFI school a year or 25years and can't teach effectively!!! I haven't read any NTSB reports about a 15day CFI being killed by his first student because he couldn't teach effectively!????

What I am saying is that you can't learn how to teach effectively in 15 days! It can't be done! What someone can easily do is reach the rote memorization level in 15 days but to reach the higher levels of learning like application and correlation it takes time and practice. Please learn how to read and understand what you read and stop putting words into posts. No I did not go to a 15 day program. Why would I with how I feel about them? That should be clear. I also never said that you would be killed, I said TRY to kill you. Every student will try to kill you when you least expect it, right when you let your guard up just a little. With a 15 day CFI chances are they can't communicate what they are teaching effectively. People learn many different ways and it takes time to develop the skills to be able to adjust your style to teach many different kinds of people. You just can't devlop those kind of skills in 15 days. Now does are CFIs that took longer perfect, of course not. What new CFI is perfect? However, they have spent more time refining those skills and chances are their instructor has played many different "student" personalities to help develop those skills.

You're saying you've never been to a 15day CFI school, but you're still comment on what can't happen!!!
What new CFI is Perfect? According to you the ones who go to schools for 5years? You don't get the picture.... You do the same in 15days at ATP that you do at a 141 University in a Semester.... Example; my flight buddy who's going for his Instrument tomorrow, just came here from a 141 university, took the Instrument for a semester and had 5hrs of flight time. Came here he said He's learned more about instument flying than he ever did at the 141 school (in 28days!!!!) I wish you'd get a CLUE before you speak on things!!!

I wish you wouldn't get so defensive and upset and have an adult conversation. I also wish you would stop inserting words into my posts. I never said that a CFI had to take 5 years to learn how to teach effectively. I just said it can't be done in 15 days. Yeah you may have a certificate but I can guarantee you can't teach effectively to most students out there. As I said before people learn differently and it takes time to develop the skills to teach many people effectively. I would love to sit in the back on one of these wonder ATP 15 day CFIs during thier first hour of dual given. Especially with a student like my first student. It would be fun to watch them squirm because they would have a tough time teaching that student. I sir also wich you would get a CLUE before speaking out on flight instructing (read: get a CFI certificate and some dual given before you talk like you know it all).

I'm not upset, defensive yes. I get so aggravated when people comment on things they have no clue about. You probably would get something out of ATPs 15day CFI school.

Well I don't know how much time you're saying you need to go to CFI school before you can be proficient so I just put a number on it, maybe I exaggerated? :-)

Please read the last sentence of my previous post about getting a clue. You may want to look in the mirror. I find it rather offensive that you say I would get something out of ATPs 15 day CFI school. That shows some character right there. Yes you did exaggerate, you do quite frequently. Just some advice, not ripping on you by any means, but you may want to take a few minutes after you read a post and put together a logical and educated reply rather than getting defensive. One reason so many people on the boards bash on your posts is because you get defensive very easily and have a snap reaction. Put together a post having an adult conversation and you might get a bit more respect. Oh yeah, congrats on the instrument rating, just don't go kill yourself with it now.

[quote=coldpilot;182103Oh yeah, congrats on the instrument rating, just don't go kill yourself with it now.[/quote]

Thanks I'll try not to kill myself..... After all I was taught by one of those 15day instructors;).

I didn't mean to offend you, I was serious, the 15day CFI school is taught by a guy who had a hand in writing every FAR you know and the AIM. Can recite Part, Subpart, Section, page number of every Reg off the top of his head. From what I've heard he's almost Too smart. I just don't think people can judge a school from the outside looking in. For my instrument I flew the same amount of hours the people from 141 schools do. Flew the same amount of Sim time, did ground school for at least 3hours each day. The reason I got my Instrument ticket in 28days? I spent 10hours at Least a day for 28 straight days...... 280total hours to get my ticket.... That's why it works?? Understand

I understand how it works. A big problem with the fast track programs is you go through the motions so quickly it doesn't give the student time to reflect on what they are doing and realize why they are doing what they are doing in the airplane. Students need time to absorb concepts and the material. You may be immersed in it all the time but I think that your time could be spent better sitting at home and taking a day or so between flights and doing some chair flying and taking time to reflect on your performance in the airplane. When I was working on my instrument rating I did a lot of chair flying, not at home in a chair but more so walking around and driving, just running procedures through my head. What I would do when I was getting ready to leave for the airport is I would think about every little thing I was going to do procedures wise for shooting an approach. I would think about the briefing, descent checklists, speeds, descent profiles for the approach, etc. You name it I was thinking of it. I did the same thing after the flight on my way home as a self critique of what I could have done better. I found this helped significantly. The key point that I am trying to get across is that it takes time to learn. It doesn't matter if you are learning how to teach so you can get your CFI or you are learning IFR procedures and regulations, it just takes time.

The Sims at ATP are Cost Free, anytime there isn't anyone in there a student can go turn it on and FLY. There's a lot of time I took advantage of this... Ten times IMO better than chair flying. Because you can crash and Redscreen the Sim without your instructor catching it for you. This helped me learn because I realized what I was doing wrong and made Damn sure I didn't do it the next time. In your Opinion it takes time, for stuff like approaches and stuff for me it takes repetition, you've stated in your earlier posts that everyone learn differently. I can't drill things in my head. I look over it once one day and again maybe 3days later and I got it. My style of learning, I've said SEVERAL times ATP isn't for everyone but suggesting it isn't a good school I incorrect. It's a good school for those who can learn quickly. Fortunately I'm one of those people, unfortunately my past 2 roommates weren't.

Trust me it's not going through the Motions! My oral today was 2hrs done by a FAA examiner who do exams at 141 schools also. I don't think he had any mercy on me because I got my signoff in 28days and others he examine got theirs in 140days?? I got ALMOST ;) every question he asked me right. Not because I remembered it but because I knew it. I'd done it and I've read it over and over again for 280hours. It's not ROTE it's UNDERSTANDING, APPLICATION and CORRELATION!

I'm skeptical of that right there.

It's ok to be Skeptical! Just know it's true.....

I dont just want to be a CFI to build hours. I want to be a competant teacher. All my flight instructors in the past have been professional CFI's 60 year old men that have been flying for 40 plus years. They have a lot of knowledge and enjoy what they do. I dont feel Flight Instructing is about building hours. I think it should be about sharing your trade and love of aviation with others.

I work with a youth aviation orgianization and my goal is to get these kids flying. And to make them competant pilots.

"don't listen to this MESS on this Forum!"

If that's what you think of this place, feel free to not post here.

N6724G. ATP will not make you a great CFI. No place can. I actually recommend ATP for the CFI's as they do a lot of them and know how to get people through it. But, you need to have your act together before you go and have a good background before you get there.

You can't really be "taught" how to be a good CFI. I think all the CFI schools put out a minimum standards product (except for maybe FSA). That's no big deal as long as you don't turn around and jump into teaching guys who are gonna be airline pilots in six months. But, if you get the certificate, and kinda ease into instructing, especially with some high time mentors to help you, you'll be fine.

The only way to be a great CFI is to do a lot of it and gain experience.

You were lucky to learn, so far, from high time CFI's. You got that going for ya. What youth aviation stuff are you doin?

I'm happy de727ups, Atleast you said something good, or Something not bad about ATP!!!! Just made my day! Although teaching Airline pilots in Six Months IMO makes you a better instructor?


I know most of you won't agree with that last statement but again It's ok

Keiundraj, I was wondering if you have any idea of how many hours ATP CFI's are getting a month? Also if you do the CFI progam what are the chances of getting hired by ATP? Just wondering, thinking of doing the program at the end of the summer. Any info would be great.

No but they can judge a school based on the impression their students make on the general public.

If I were managing ATP I would pay you to stay away from Internet pilot forums. Seriously, after reading some of your posts you're fueling the impression that many people have that ATP will train anyone with a checkbook - brain optional.

That IS callous, but please ask yourself what you have to prove on an anonymous forum, and why you're posting here. You've squandered any chance of getting genuine and thoughtful advice from those who are working in the airline industry. Why are you here?

"No but they can judge a school based on the impression their students make on the general public. If I were managing ATP I would pay you to stay away from Internet pilot forums"

Wow....I was just thinkin' the same thing. The stuff a person says here can be seen for years with the search function. I was thinking this guy does his beloved cause more harm than good.

Firstly, I have serious doubts this guy's been with the FAA long enough to have been involved with every reg there is.
Secondly, who cares if he's memorized the FAR? All that means is that he's got too much time on his hands - NOT that he's a better pilot for it.

I had a couple of co-workers who went to ATP for the CFI, they both said that they wished it had been more like how we train here (university 141). They had to learn everything before going, then got no advice on teaching. So they had to really bite the bullet their first semesters of instructing. In contrast, the university's program involves teaching every ground subject. We don't get lectured, we're expected to teach the subject and then get pointers on dealing with students.

If you're at UND, then, I'd also agree they turn out a great CFI.

I once did a 152 checkout with a UND guy who, I swear, must have never flown a Cessna before. He was all over the place. But, from the beginning of the "interview", it was plain that he was well prepared as a CFI. Much better than an ATP or FBO CFI would be.

At the same time, it's still a license to learn. You can go from min standards to a pretty good CFI in 200 hours. It's just sad that, at ATP, about the time you get competent, you're long gone for the regionals while leaving it up to the 90 day wonder to step up.

Of course, this is the stated intent of ATP, to get you to a regional at min time no matter what and at any cost.

does anyone know about ATP's saftey record? ...just curious

It's ok to doubt but it's true.

ATP Trust me isn't worried about these Forums..... They're going to Continue to get students Regardless. POINT BLANK. I'm here because I was tired of reading people talk bad about A school that they've never been to. But their exprience qualifies them to know???:rolleyes:

So you've checked out ATP CFIs too??? PLEASE do me a favor, STOP commenting on things If you haven't done them. Just like me saying flying the 757/767 for UPS is the worst job in the world! I don't know that I can't even speak on it. (now say something about my TT.)

Safe as any other flight schools out there, even those that send their CFIs to school for 2semesters or not. Safety record is SPOTLESS.

Well, let's see here...
The FAA was created in 1958. If this instructor you speak of has been involved in writing regulations since the birth of the FAA, that would mean he's had almost a 50-year career thus far.
Of course, we all know that the FAA was pre-dated by the CAA - and so were some of the laws under which we now fly. The CAA was split from the CAB in 1940, which means that your man would have had a 60+ career thus far (at an absolute minimum).
Just how old is this guy, hm?

The typical FAR book published by ASA gets 25 pages thicker every year, on average.

As far as pilot mill CFIs...a flight school I previously instructed at wouldn't hire any wet-ticket CFIs from Comair Academy, FSI, or ATP due to previous bad experiences. I was witness to the interview that caused this policy - I have never seen somebody hold a pilot certificate that was so wholly unprepared and uneducated as to the tasks and responsibilities of the job they were interviewing before. Not saying that all folks that come from those schools can't teach, but its not out of line to say that schools like that aren't there to teach you how to teach, they're there to get you a certificate, and ultimately, an airline job.

FWIW, I might have attended Purdue but I did all my CFI tickets through an FBO twice as fast and half the price of any university program. I taught at Purdue and elsewhere 61 and also was a 141 check instructor at the aforementioned flight school. I challenge anybody to tell me that my instruction was inferior to someone else's simply because of where they learned.

Negative on UND. I'm at MTSU. But its fairly similar concept. You definitely gain a lot of skill in the first 200 dual given. I do think it helps that the lessons I had were dedicated to learning to teach and deal with students (both the ones who didn't understand the first time, and the ones who don't listen).

I work with CAP cadets, a organizationcalled ACE and OBAP summer camps.

I think you canbe taugt to be a good CFI. Learning the fundamentals of teaching (levels of learning, principles of learning, Evaluating students, developng lesson plans) These are skills that need to be taught. You just cant just jump in their and start teaching. Youhave to understand human behavior and that people learn at different rates and at different levels. Its not as easy as passing an FOI 60 question test

ACE and OBAP.... I'm a member of OBAP and I think you're doing a great thing teaching for ACE... .Wish you the best, sir. Do what you think will greater benefit you! If that's ATP then don't let the people on here stop you from going. If it isn't that's fine too, just do what's best for you..... For me ATP was the best for me, I wasn't getting any younger I received the financing so here I am. Don't let people tell you what Can't happen or what's not possible. Remember the Tuskegee airman? People said that it couldn't happen, they NEVER lost a bomber! So don't let people discourage you or tell you what can't happen. Prove them wrong.... OBAP is a great organization if you're attending the conference this year in Houston I'd love to meet you and talk.