hkdguy

Spoke with someone recently that had an ATP for Airplane Multi Engine Land and Airplane Multi Engine Sea.
In the comments section it said "Multi Engine Sea Limited to VFR Only."

How is this possible?
How can he have an ATP-MES that is limited to VFR? The ATP checkride is an instrument checkride. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Thanks

JohnBurke

The individual holds a pilot certificate with ATP privileges. ATP privileges do not necessariy extend to all category and class ratings on the pilot certificate. For example, one may have a pilot certificate with ATP privileges in multi-engine land, but only commercial privileges in single-engine land, or sea; the ATP practical test has not been administered for the single engine land, or the single engine sea, and thus ATP privileges are not available to the holder of that certificate.

I hold a pilot certificate, which states Airline Transport Pilot. However, it is not an ATP certificate. It is a pilot certificate. It does not mean that I hold ATP privileges for every category and class rating on the certificate.

Simply becasue a category or class rating is on an ATP certificate, it does not mean that the ATP holder has ATP, or even instrument privileges for a given category or class rating. All levels of privilege are on the same certificate, because it is not an ATP certificate, but a pilot certificate. One may have a single pilot certificate with ATP, commercial, and priviate pilot privileges listed there; some may have instrument privileges, some may not.

The ATP level of pilot certification, and the practical test for the ATP, is an instrument checkride. While the pilot may be instrument rated, when attaining the ATP, the certificate no longer says "instrument airplane," for example, as ATP certification supplants the instrument rating. If category and class ratings below the ATP level are held which do not have instrument privileges for that airman, then that will be noted in the limitations for that certificate (eg, VFR Only). Commonly, type ratings are held at the ATP level which contain other limits, such as circling in VMC only. The inclusion of a limitation on the pilot certificate of an ATP holder, showing VFR only for the multi-engine sea, shows that while that pilot does hold instrument privileges as an ATP, he or she has not demonstrated the practical test for instrument privileges in multi-engine seaplanes.

If one takes the practical test for the multi-engine sea rating, without doing the instrument portion or testing to ATP standards, then one will not have instrument privileges in multi-engine sea airplanes. One may very well have tested in an aircraft that isn't IFR certified. Oftne people don't take the practical test for instrument privileges, or test to the ATP level, when adding a rating such as multi-engine sea, for the expense involved.

One might have gone somewhere like Seabring Aviation to do the add-on rating in an AirCam, a VFR-only platform. https://sebring-aviation.com/pilot-t...-seaplane-ames

It's a quick, five-hour course, and the least expensive way to add on a multi engine sea airplane rating, but it won't include an instrument checkride or test for ATP privileges.

hkdguy

All great info. Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. 😉

My personal certificate is ATP MEL
Commercial SEL SES MES

Actually added my MES at Sebring a couple years ago so I understand adding the rating without taking an instrument checkride. Great program by the way. 👍🏼👍🏼

This is what this guys certificate looks like:

Certificate: AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
Date of Issue:

Ratings:
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE SEA
COMMERCIAL PRIVILEGES
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE SEA


Limits:
ENGLISH PROFICIENT.
MULTIENGINE SEA LIMITED TO VFR ONLY.

Im trying to figure out how he added a MES rating at the ATP level but then has the "VFR ONLY" limitation.
Seems weird.

crbnftprnt

I believe that the FAA has made a mistake in this case. The MES rating should have been added at the commercial level, along with the limitation that flying passengers more than 50 miles and flying for hire at night are prohibited. Or (unlikely) it could have been added at the private level without specifiying those restrictions.

hkdguy

Possibly a mistake. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I've just never seen an ATP certificate with a VFR only limitation.

Really caught my eye. I was hoping someone might know of an older FAA policy that would have allowed this situation.

Anyone?

rickair7777

I recall some old provision for a VFR ATP, I think the practical application may have been for large-ish flying boats?

Could be wrong.

QRH Bingo

Does this particular MES require a type-rating? As you can receive a VFR type-rating which may have been processed by adding the limitation onto the ATP.

hkdguy

I've seen a few type ratings where there was a VFR limitation. (ie...DC-3, G-111, etc..)
But this person has zero type ratings. Just the MES rating with a VFR limitation.

I've just never seen an ATP-MES with a VFR limitation.

Just wondering how that's possible. 🤷🏻‍♂️

hkdguy

Anyone here with an ATP-MES?

What were the circumstances you received the rating under?

Company paid for? Privately funded?

crbnftprnt

In 1994 I did it with a gentleman in Spruce Creek, Florida who gave the training in his personally-owned Grumman Widgeon. Checkride was with a Designated Examiner in southwest Florida. I paid for it myself for no useful purpose whatever. I had just always been fascinated by the big old flying boats (Spruce Goose, Boeing 314, Martin Mars, etc.) For an add-on rating I was expecting a somewhat cursory instrument portion of the checkride, but we did every single item in the Practical Test Standards. I understand that that same airplane is still available for training with a subsequent owner, perhaps in Alabama. I had owned a Lake Amphibian for four years prior.