First officer programs
 

I was looking into a good first officer program that anybody has gone through, and what they thought about it. What i mean by first officer program is that you have to pay for it.

"What i mean by first officer program is that you have to pay for it."

These sort of programs are universally looked down upon by professional pilots. Pilots should be paid for being a F/O. A job as an airline pilot should not be an entry level job or one where you are paying for the experience the job brings you. This sort of thing only further brings down an industry that, at it's lower levels, can be a pretty ugly place.

But to answer your question, do a search for PFJ, PFT, Gulfstream, or Jet U. It will be an education.

Welcome to APC, by the way. Another good place to do your search at would be the forums at www.jetcareers.com

Pay-For-Training (PFT) is bad, but actually paying for a job as a required crewmember will brand you for life. A lot of people really look down on that because we are in a continual battle to prevent the erosion of pilot payscales...and somebody who is willing to pay to do our job is about the worst possible scenario.

first officer
 

Its so hard to get multi time by instructing and it just seems like your going to have to pay for it, so why not get the edge on every body and do a first officer program? People say you're buying your job, but didnt everybody buy there job by spending 30k to 70k on ppl and ratings? To me, if I were going to hire someone and one person has 1000 hour total in teaching ppl and the other person has a total of 1000 hour in sic king air I think I would go with the king air pilot. Im not trying to be a smart ass at all i just think a paid first officer should not be looked down on just because some other guy worked at a FBO for the last 3 years flight instructing. I hope i didnt step an any toes in this forum im just trying to figure out which way i need to go. Thank you again

Because getting "the edge" on people cuts the rest of your industry off from the solidarity needed to have a serious talk with management. If the airlines can easily find people willing to pay to sit in their seat, they can stop hiring people who worked up to that point. It is frustrating to try to get that last bit of multi, or finally catch your big break. Honestly though, it's the same in every industry. Think of it this way, PFT means you make less than the interns. But your job is to guarantee the safety of at least 50 people. Don't you think that pay should be equal to that kind of responsibility?

If he was instructing for 3 years he was doing something wrong in this climate. Schools are so desperate for instructors that you'd have no problems logging multi time at the right school. It's not hard to log 80 hours a month at a reasonably busy school and if you bust your butt it's easy to do more than 100. You simply cant compare what your friend went through because 3 years ago regionals wouldn't look at you with less than 1000/100 and 1500/300 was much more competative. That three year instructor has much more experience than any PFT wonder even if he has the same hours. Why? Because he's been flying over a greater time period and seen more weather, and other challenges.

You're not going to encounter too many 1000 hour king air pilots and there is no such thing as SIC in that airplane unless the 135 certificate they're on requires it. Most corporate flight departments have insanely high insurance requirements and lowtimers don't get those kind of jobs. Most people that are at that point are staying where they are. Chances are they're paid better than their regional counterparts or simply like the job better. Not everybody has an ultimate goal of the airlines.

Paying for ratings is one thing. Once you have the required ratings you shouldn't have to pay for a job. PERIOD.

I read alot of these posts.

"it takes so long to get multi"

It doesnt take long, people just want to get their ratings and then get their multi and be in the regionals in 3 months at 300 hours. If you just relax a minute, get a job at a good flight school you can fly the multi 20+ hours per month at almost any school and you will gain..i know its a non existent word anymore but you will gain this funny thing called "experience"

whats so wrong with instructing to build time..why is everyone so eager to buy their way into the industry?

I have averaged 145 hours per month instructing for the last 6 months and that is up in the North East where the weather never cooperates. Just head on down to your local hardware store and pick up a can of elbow greese and roll your shirt sleeves up.

Aviation is a little different from the business and financial worlds (where you are expected to try to screw everybody else before they screw you). There is a certain feeling of brotherhood, and there are some fine lines that define right and wrong.

Also in the business world your reputation may not follow you around...in the airline business the federal government ensures that your entire flying history is available to any potential employer. If you cross the line everyone will know forever...

There are excepted ways to "get ahead" in aviation: Putting in your time and working hard. If you want to progress faster, you do that by making QOL sacrifices to chase the best job opportunities. Ultimately airline aviation is a seniority-based endevour...getting too far ahead is going to require cheating, which is not acceptable. Some behavior to avoid:

- Pay For Training (PFT): It's OK to pay for your licenses (most civilians have to), but not OK to pay for training in a specific aircraft in order to get a job. This one is a grey area...many flight schools charge new instructors for airplane checkouts, and SWA requires you to buy a 737 type before you start work.

- SCAB (Picket Line Crossing): This is the worst, and will brand you for life. Since nobody's going on strike any time soon, this is not an issue today.

- Alter-ego: This involves an internal division within an airline where some pilots agree to work for less pay and benefits if management will allow them to fly certain aircraft and upgrade before their seniority would allow it. GoJet airlines is the only active alter-ego that I know of. This one is as bad as scabbing, and will also likely haunt you forever.

- Pay-to-Play: This is basically what you were asking about. You pay for a job as an FO...a job that SHOULD have gone to an qualified pilot who needed a job. This might or might not bite you in the @ss in the future. Most airlines use pilots to interview and hire pilots. If you get a guy at your interview who does not approve of Pay-to-Play...well, there are probably many other candidates who have acceptable backgrounds.

Easy answer, don't do it, you're supporting the problem, not the solution. And I'm not from the 121 world.

Those pay to fly places make me sick. They are one of the reasons pay is so crappy right now. Why pay us more when kids are willing to pay for this job...a joke and discrace.

Put your time in as a CFI like all of us did. Does not matter if it takes longer, it is called paying your dues.

And if you decide to "pay to play," keep it a secret because you will not be respected at all in the industry.

"i just think a paid first officer should not be looked down on just because some other guy worked at a FBO for the last 3 years flight instructing."

I disagree. So do the rest of the people answering your question, here.

These are people in the industry. I can't even say they are your peers because you're not in the industry. They are your peer wannabes. They are right on the money. Of course, the final choice is yours.

Thanks for all the help and information, i guess i will be going the cfi route.

No. Relative to the majority of all working airlines, I'd venture to say that very very few working pilots paid that much for flight training if they paid at all.

Despite what the pilot mills tell you, there is no quick fix for a piloting career. Sure, in 90 days you can jump through the hoops and learn the right answers to an oral question or fly a predictable profile for a check ride - but don't confuse this as being the same as aeronautical experience. As you finish the course from a pilot mill do you really, deep down inside really, think you have the experience to work in a 121 environment with 300 hours?

There are no shortcuts to experience. Comparing a 1000 hour King Air pilot and a 1000 CFI, I'll take the CFI any day. The CFI has the aeronautical knowledge AND the experience working with a variety of people. BTW, there is no such thing as a King Air SIC, it's certified single pilot, so your really describing a guy riding along as ballast to pad his/her log book.

Ummmm no, my friends and I never paid to build any multi time. We got our multi commercial, 1200 TT and flew bank checks for a year.

Safety is a Consideration
 

I have read many, many threads here about pay-your-dues and be a flight instructor to gain experience and the min. required flight time needed to send-off those resumes to the regionals. Teaching is a great profession, and I will guess (from my experience) only 30-40% of the flight instructors out there have their hearts in there jobs...so why do it? Well, you do it because you need TIME! I would rather have this individual go pay for the right seat rather than ride on students wallets anyway.

Since the main gripe is "Oh you have to pay-your-dues to be respected in the aviation community, so flight instruct," is just hog wash. This isn't 1960 anymore this is 2010 and the aviation industry is completely different. This thinking is just out of date and made by pilots who are complainers anyway. Either you want to fly or you don't? What the industry wants and needs are good pilots who want to be the best at what they do...they first live to fly! Look at the highly paid PIC from the Delta flight into Min. who was griping so much over money he jepordized the safety of the flight? In my opinion, if his heart isn't into flying anymore then leave.

I am not at all saying hire pilots because they just hand MGMT some money...NOT AT ALL. The pilot has to be qualified!

In these pay for training opportunities, pilots are NOT just given the job because they have money. They go through the same training as any other pilot...high quality Part 135 or Part 121 training. If they can't perform, then they don't fly...not exactly the same for flight instructors at least to a point anyway. The military doesn't believe in having pilots just log time to move to the next level. Most F16 pilots have or start with only 400hrs. I believe it's important to seek out high quality training, flying the biggest and fastes aircraft you can gain experience flying. How many hours of C-172 time does a pilot need to master this aircraft? You paid to fly the C-172 so what if you paid to fly the shorts 360?

Don't forget the pilot who does decide to pay for the right seat is probably flying freight (most of these programs are by freight companies...Gulfstream has one I know). It's hard work flying at night on instruments probably with no autopilot. The pilots fly and sit...it isn't fun and they do it to show they have the desire to advance. Some get moved around every month and don't have a place to live. Some pilots have lived in their cars until they can afford to rent an apt. because they are not getting paid...right? Plus, a lot of the freight FOs have even help load and unload the freight. Yes, these pilots are PAYING THEIR DUES and gaining experience no flight instructor could ever obtain. You fly in all the weather, at night in real IMC. If I am hiring, I choose the pilot who has this kind of experience.

Lastly, as my title states, "Safety is a consideration." Flight instructing in little aircraft (part 61 or part 141) just isn't as safe as flying part 135 or 121 ops or aircraft. Flight instructing for 700-800hrs in training aircraft at uncontrolled airports is higher risk of a mishap. (I think general aviation is safe, but again it is all in the law of averages...what about the other guy who hits you and now you can't pass a first-class medical??? Something to think about?) One mishap and your career can be over before you start? Why take the risk? A talented athlete uses this theroy all-the-time (especially if they are good like a good pilot).

Anyway new pilots with 400-500hrs, who have the money should look into a good first officer program. One thought is to obtain your CFI first! The CFI rating is looked at very highly by those who hire. This rating is not easy to obtain...the check-ride will be the hardest of them all. Then look into buliding time within a good first officer program, unless you really need to practice those turns-around-a-point on a nice sunny day...however some really need to, you decide?

Nice dead thread revival.:rolleyes: Go away.

CB: Not the way I'd want to start at APC...way to make a splash...

PS. Dredging up threads from 2 and a half years ago is no bueno. Someone want to lock this one down?

Its all a moot point anyway, congress will see to it that to step into a part 121 a/c, an ATP will be required by all flight crew. I hope so. Now let the thread go back to slumber land.

I suspect cloudbuster is manager/salesman for one of those programs where you pay to log "SIC" in an airplane which is only certified for a single-pilot :rolleyes:

No need to lock the thread, it is still relevant today, especially with hints of possible airline hiring on the horizon.

Pay for a job
 

I have a friend who was a frustrated CFI and bought a FO job in a turbine twin. Six months later he got hired at Frontier and five years after that he upgraded to captain.

Pay to play is a risk. Relying on the natural job market to produce a similar job opportunity during hard times is a bigger risk.

I can not see how pilots and employers will ever know, or care, a few years down the road how you got your job. A pilot should use every resource that is at their disposal. Others eagerly usilise contacts or other advantages and no one seems to criticize them.

If all you have is money then buy a job. Do not let others talk you out of using a valid opportunity.

Skyhigh

Depends on who is doing your interview... you need to decide whether paying for your job now is worth the risk of someone who does know better interviewing you for your dream job down the road.

My Brand New F.O. Program:

Fly as SIC in a B55 Baron Part 91!! Log super-duper ultra high performance and amazingly complex cross country multi-engine time (which is uber valuable to airlines) time, wash and wax the aircraft... live the great life of being stuck at super boring cities for days on end. The gear handle is on the right side, so the aircraft MUST need a SIC no matter what the FAA says. This will put you waaaay ahead of all those hardworking CFIs out there! Just imagine for the low price of $19,900 you could have 10 'SIC' hours in a B55!!!

What you will get:

Instruction in how to program routes in a GPS and work XM Radio!!!!
Instruction in how to close the door properly!!!
Instruction in how to put the gear up/down!

possible upgrades may include:

Working the comms!!!
Turning on the tail strobe at night!!!
Monitoring CHTs, EGTs, and Oil Pressure/Temps!!!!


Imagine this on a resume!

Remember this is really competitive... so we won't select just anyone with the money!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------


before I get a crap-ton of serious PMs... it's just a joke

ryan1234 you have a PM.

Lakes is better
 

I would think that working at Great Lakes is ten times better than PFT. (No, I don't work there) First year pay is absolutely terrible, but at least you aren't paying for it! On top of that, they pay you to fly in the right seat where you can legally log SIC turbine time.

There is no gray about it: SWA is Pay For Training. SWA pilots have helped lower the bar for everyone else in the industry, and that's how I and many others will always see them. Just because it's a major airline, and people are "happy" to work there, doesn't make their PFT right. It is wrong, and always will be.

You may feel its wrong but I bet 90% of the will get to a left seat faster then the CFI guy. If you have the means to purchase a program I say go for it. You need to position yourself now for the next hiring wave in a few years. Once they cycle through all the furloughs, a mass hiring could take place. Retirements will be increasing which should free slots at the regional level. world wide airline which are expected to take deliveries of 1000's plane and many of the will come from the USA. This world wide demand and low flight school enrollment rates at flight schools will start a hiring frenzy like we saw a few years ago. Go pay for you turbine time and I bet you will be ask by your old CFI friends to help walk in their resume. mark my words 2-3 years they will be hiring 1000's to replace the age 62-65 guys and the others who jump ship to Asia or middle east. And my prediction doesn't even take into account domestic growth as the economy recovers. I would rather have 500 hours of PFT turbine time then BE-76 time when they start hiring.

If anyone disagrees please let me know. I research this information daily and this is my opinion. If anyone has articles that say another story please feel free to PM them to me. lets face it, its bad now but making the right steps now will put in in front during the next hiring wave.If I was a HR rep I would rater call a guy with 500 hours in a Falcon 10 then the 172 guy.

I think SWA is PFT because we made it that way. I think the 737 type was a requirement in the beginning to attract pilots who were already typed, thus decreasing the possibility for washout during training. Because we pilots realized that SWA was a good place to be, we CHOSE to pay for training to qualify ourselves instead of going to work for another operator who flies 73's first and moving to SWA. They have never said that you have to pay for your type, they just said you have to have one.

You may be correct. The fact still remains: No other U.S. airline requires a new pilot employee to show up on the first day of indoc with a type certificate in hand.

As I understand it, during the last several years that SWA was hiring, they ran out of applicants with 737 types, so they agreed to interview and hire someone, as long as that person showed up with a type in hand on the first day of indoc. If this isn't a PFT scenario, I don't know what is.

As long as new-hires agree to do this, nothing will change.

As bad as hiring is right now, I can't see that as a reason to justify PFT jet programs. It's my opinion that the money and time required to find and get into a program would be better served in building time through traffic watch, et al, followed by getting on with a 135 outfit. People used to do that, and it worked out pretty well for them. Nowadays, I think many pilots either forget or just want to skip over working for a 135 carrier. Whether it's charter or cargo, the time is good, it's usually in a turbine aircraft, all-weather flying. Most just don't want to get to 1200 hours anymore.

I find it interesting that in the US, PFT and/or cadet programs are frowned upon, whaereas in Europe, Africa, India, the Middle East and some developing countries, we (Americans) embrace the concept. Why is that?

My belief is that what is meant for me to attain in this industry/profession, I will get whether I'm flying 91,121, or 135. Nothing, absolutely nothing, will stop that from happening whether someone else takes the CFI/135 route or the PFT route.

JMO.




atp

No one cares
 

It is a pilot legend that future employers will know, care or even think it was a bad thing to buy a job. Why would SWA care if you bought a job when you were starting out? They want you to buy a type rating prior to employment. It shows incentive and a drive to fly.

The only ones who care are those who are climbing the ladder alongside and do not have the money to buy themselves a job too. Pilots lie, cheat and steal to get ahead (especially during hard times). Buying a job is low on the list of things used to get ahead.

No one cares. Buy a job. Don't buy a job. Aviation is a risk. Doing nothing when there is a valid opportunity on the table is not the best either. Others have dads who own planes or are on the board of a major airlines. If your only advantage is to buy a job then don't let others try and talk you out of using that as a means to reaching your goals.

Skyhigh

Years
 

Wasted years of your life is far more costly than paying in cash to advance a career during hard times. Why endure years of dangerous flying that has no clear value to your ultimate career destination?

If the airlines cared about part 135 flying then they would make it a requirement for employment. Skip it and go straight to jets if you can.

Skyhigh

Ever been to an airline interview? The HR rep will walk you down the hallway to a conference room where a captain(s) will ask you about the 300 TT, 6 weeks employment as a CFI, and King Air SIC time and/or Regional Jet Training Program that is in bold type on your resume. After which they will suggest some instructing experience or 135 work and then invited you to update your resume in six months.

[quote=atpwannabe;746872]I find it interesting that in the US, PFT and/or cadet programs are frowned upon, whaereas in Europe, Africa, India, the Middle East and some developing countries, we (Americans) embrace the concept. Why is that?

My belief is that what is meant for me to attain in this industry/profession, I will get whether I'm flying 91,121, or 135. Nothing, absolutely nothing, will stop that from happening whether someone else takes the CFI/135 route or the PFT route.

JMO.





In the rest of the world "cadet programs" are not PFT, the airline pays you, and pays for your training.
Its Apples to Oranges.
The US has to many pilots already, they dont need cadet programs