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First officer programs

Old 09-10-2007, 01:20 PM
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Default First officer programs

I was looking into a good first officer program that anybody has gone through, and what they thought about it. What i mean by first officer program is that you have to pay for it.
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Old 09-10-2007, 01:30 PM
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"What i mean by first officer program is that you have to pay for it."

These sort of programs are universally looked down upon by professional pilots. Pilots should be paid for being a F/O. A job as an airline pilot should not be an entry level job or one where you are paying for the experience the job brings you. This sort of thing only further brings down an industry that, at it's lower levels, can be a pretty ugly place.

But to answer your question, do a search for PFJ, PFT, Gulfstream, or Jet U. It will be an education.

Welcome to APC, by the way. Another good place to do your search at would be the forums at www.jetcareers.com
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by pilot77 View Post
I was looking into a good first officer program that anybody has gone through, and what they thought about it. What i mean by first officer program is that you have to pay for it.
Pay-For-Training (PFT) is bad, but actually paying for a job as a required crewmember will brand you for life. A lot of people really look down on that because we are in a continual battle to prevent the erosion of pilot payscales...and somebody who is willing to pay to do our job is about the worst possible scenario.
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:50 PM
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Default first officer

Its so hard to get multi time by instructing and it just seems like your going to have to pay for it, so why not get the edge on every body and do a first officer program? People say you're buying your job, but didnt everybody buy there job by spending 30k to 70k on ppl and ratings? To me, if I were going to hire someone and one person has 1000 hour total in teaching ppl and the other person has a total of 1000 hour in sic king air I think I would go with the king air pilot. Im not trying to be a smart ass at all i just think a paid first officer should not be looked down on just because some other guy worked at a FBO for the last 3 years flight instructing. I hope i didnt step an any toes in this forum im just trying to figure out which way i need to go. Thank you again
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:11 PM
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Because getting "the edge" on people cuts the rest of your industry off from the solidarity needed to have a serious talk with management. If the airlines can easily find people willing to pay to sit in their seat, they can stop hiring people who worked up to that point. It is frustrating to try to get that last bit of multi, or finally catch your big break. Honestly though, it's the same in every industry. Think of it this way, PFT means you make less than the interns. But your job is to guarantee the safety of at least 50 people. Don't you think that pay should be equal to that kind of responsibility?
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by pilot77 View Post
Its so hard to get multi time by instructing and it just seems like your going to have to pay for it, so why not get the edge on every body and do a first officer program? People say you're buying your job, but didnt everybody buy there job by spending 30k to 70k on ppl and ratings? To me, if I were going to hire someone and one person has 1000 hour total in teaching ppl and the other person has a total of 1000 hour in sic king air I think I would go with the king air pilot. Im not trying to be a smart ass at all i just think a paid first officer should not be looked down on just because some other guy worked at a FBO for the last 3 years flight instructing. I hope i didnt step an any toes in this forum im just trying to figure out which way i need to go. Thank you again
If he was instructing for 3 years he was doing something wrong in this climate. Schools are so desperate for instructors that you'd have no problems logging multi time at the right school. It's not hard to log 80 hours a month at a reasonably busy school and if you bust your butt it's easy to do more than 100. You simply cant compare what your friend went through because 3 years ago regionals wouldn't look at you with less than 1000/100 and 1500/300 was much more competative. That three year instructor has much more experience than any PFT wonder even if he has the same hours. Why? Because he's been flying over a greater time period and seen more weather, and other challenges.

You're not going to encounter too many 1000 hour king air pilots and there is no such thing as SIC in that airplane unless the 135 certificate they're on requires it. Most corporate flight departments have insanely high insurance requirements and lowtimers don't get those kind of jobs. Most people that are at that point are staying where they are. Chances are they're paid better than their regional counterparts or simply like the job better. Not everybody has an ultimate goal of the airlines.

Paying for ratings is one thing. Once you have the required ratings you shouldn't have to pay for a job. PERIOD.
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Old 09-11-2007, 03:09 AM
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I read alot of these posts.

"it takes so long to get multi"

It doesnt take long, people just want to get their ratings and then get their multi and be in the regionals in 3 months at 300 hours. If you just relax a minute, get a job at a good flight school you can fly the multi 20+ hours per month at almost any school and you will gain..i know its a non existent word anymore but you will gain this funny thing called "experience"

whats so wrong with instructing to build time..why is everyone so eager to buy their way into the industry?

I have averaged 145 hours per month instructing for the last 6 months and that is up in the North East where the weather never cooperates. Just head on down to your local hardware store and pick up a can of elbow greese and roll your shirt sleeves up.
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by pilot77 View Post
Its so hard to get multi time by instructing and it just seems like your going to have to pay for it, so why not get the edge on every body and do a first officer program? People say you're buying your job, but didnt everybody buy there job by spending 30k to 70k on ppl and ratings? To me, if I were going to hire someone and one person has 1000 hour total in teaching ppl and the other person has a total of 1000 hour in sic king air I think I would go with the king air pilot. Im not trying to be a smart ass at all i just think a paid first officer should not be looked down on just because some other guy worked at a FBO for the last 3 years flight instructing. I hope i didnt step an any toes in this forum im just trying to figure out which way i need to go. Thank you again
Aviation is a little different from the business and financial worlds (where you are expected to try to screw everybody else before they screw you). There is a certain feeling of brotherhood, and there are some fine lines that define right and wrong.

Also in the business world your reputation may not follow you around...in the airline business the federal government ensures that your entire flying history is available to any potential employer. If you cross the line everyone will know forever...

There are excepted ways to "get ahead" in aviation: Putting in your time and working hard. If you want to progress faster, you do that by making QOL sacrifices to chase the best job opportunities. Ultimately airline aviation is a seniority-based endevour...getting too far ahead is going to require cheating, which is not acceptable. Some behavior to avoid:

- Pay For Training (PFT): It's OK to pay for your licenses (most civilians have to), but not OK to pay for training in a specific aircraft in order to get a job. This one is a grey area...many flight schools charge new instructors for airplane checkouts, and SWA requires you to buy a 737 type before you start work.

- SCAB (Picket Line Crossing): This is the worst, and will brand you for life. Since nobody's going on strike any time soon, this is not an issue today.

- Alter-ego: This involves an internal division within an airline where some pilots agree to work for less pay and benefits if management will allow them to fly certain aircraft and upgrade before their seniority would allow it. GoJet airlines is the only active alter-ego that I know of. This one is as bad as scabbing, and will also likely haunt you forever.

- Pay-to-Play: This is basically what you were asking about. You pay for a job as an FO...a job that SHOULD have gone to an qualified pilot who needed a job. This might or might not bite you in the @ss in the future. Most airlines use pilots to interview and hire pilots. If you get a guy at your interview who does not approve of Pay-to-Play...well, there are probably many other candidates who have acceptable backgrounds.
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:45 AM
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Easy answer, don't do it, you're supporting the problem, not the solution. And I'm not from the 121 world.
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:14 AM
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Those pay to fly places make me sick. They are one of the reasons pay is so crappy right now. Why pay us more when kids are willing to pay for this job...a joke and discrace.

Put your time in as a CFI like all of us did. Does not matter if it takes longer, it is called paying your dues.

And if you decide to "pay to play," keep it a secret because you will not be respected at all in the industry.
 
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