question about ATP
 

heard a rumor that if you get your CFI (not necessarily at ATP)and go work with ATP that they will pay for your CFII and MEI (of course you have to work for them afterwards)...this coming from instructors that are there right now...anyone shed some light on this

i would only consider this cause the path of a non cfi is going slower then i thought (good money, not that much hours)

who knows, definitely sounds like a rumor.

I sorta doubt ATP would pay for the ratings, doesn't sound like them.

who knows?

Go to www.atpflightschool.com and click on drop down menu "CFI Jobs & More" and check it out for yourself.


atp

I noticed ATP has also changed there requirements for the Airline Career training program. They now require 25 hours of X-ctry time (up from 5 hours) and 85 hours TT (up from 55 hrs). They also require a 2 year degree or equivlant. Anybody know why they raised there prerequistes for the program?

Probably because they don't want any high-school dropouts to go straight into instructing/a regional career. Requiring at least a 2-year degree is much more reasonable.

Yeah, they probably had hassles trying to deal with underachievers or immature kids. My 141 school had that problem a few times...the young slacker doesn't study or prepare, his program slips way behind and then the parents get all PO'ed that all that money's gone with little to show for it.

I'll give ATP management some credit for dealing with the issue up front, rather just taking the student's money and then blaming the CFI for the end result.

I believe that the airline industry has requested/mandated/prefers having a pilot who can communicate using his or her writing skills to say...submit a report or something along those lines.

I know for a fact ERAU got feedback from the airlines back in the 70's about this very same issue. Riddle was turning out some great pilots, however, some weren't even able to fill out a report or express themselves using their writing skills. The airlines made this known to Riddle and the institution responded appropiately. Thus, the 4-year Aeronautical Science program.


atp

The program I'm currently going through offers a two year degree in junction with the certificated ratings, and I couldn't be any happier with it.

I think a lot of people tend to underestimate exactly how challenging some aspects of flight training can be. I've seen the end result of people trying to go through on the program on the parents coin and expecting it to just get handed to them and it isn't pretty.

I doubt ATP is making a moral stand here...if they didn't have the CFI turnover problems, they'd be happy to still take the HS dropout's money pass or fail.

k apparently no one knows the answer the question

...i called atp and they didn't help at all...they kept thinking that i want to start as a student after i told them at least 3 times that I had my CSEL and CMEL and was wondering about cfiing for them....who knows

Well, if you can't get your info from the source...you may want to train elsewhere!

Call 800-ALL-ATPS and ask to talk to someone who knows about being a TOTAL instructor, not a Career Pilot. The people who normally speak to you on the phone are blithering idiots, with the rare few exceptions.

If you really have to, tell them you want to talk to Jim, or their manager, it will scare them into being smart, and actually help you.

"The people who normally speak to you on the phone are blithering idiots"

MWHAHAHAHAHA....

But they are ATP's finest CFI's just doing their time in the pit before they can be "standardized".

That is true, most of them are total idiots, get standardized, train students poorly, get hired at a regional, wash out, and quit flying. A good deal of them also eventually end up being good pilots tho!

Idiots? Right...


ATPs training is not for everyone. Airline training is not for everyone.

ATP should require 4 year degrees for their career pilot program.

If I do go to ATP - its for no other reason but their organized / accelerated flight training program. Its tested and works.

I'm not wasting another minute at an FBO. Not even to instruct.

I asked folks on another board if CFIing until I had my ATP rating then applying to the regional was a good idea. 90%+ said it was a stupid thing to do considering you can get hired at 500/100 or less. Seniority, they said, was more important and getting an ATP / CFI for too long wouldn't help.

So to all you experienced airline pilots out there...Whats a good benchmark for a CFI? When does the experience gained from CFI start to taper off? When should you break from CFI and head to the regionals.

Thanks,
LAFF

"ATP should require 4 year degrees for their career pilot program."

Why is that?

"Whats a good benchmark for a CFI?"

They didn't tell you it was stupid to instruct to ATP mins because of some sort of negative return point as a CFI. They are saying don't wait to 1500 total to get the regional job if you could get it at 1000.

Everyone differs on CFI burnout. It's not so much that you stop learning but more that you stop being effective, at some point, because you get sick of it and need to move on. Also, as you instruct, and build your time to the point you become qualified for other jobs, the grass is greener syndrome kicks in and makes CFI burnout syndrome twice as strong.

Dude, until you go, quit promoting the place. You seriously cannot make a very objective post regarding ATP, since you have never been.

so...the person i talked to at ATP (who was an instructor) was wrong about possibly having them pay for my II and MEi if i sign a contract with them

everyone else i talk to about them says that they will do that...

discuss...again

They don't pay for your mei. Had to pay for it, then was hired.

Wally

You pay for the MEI......

What's the deal?
 

Another question for the ATP guys:

In terms of what a person pays at ATP for the PP & ACPP; will I be buying a block of time that includes the a/c & instructor and that it is expected of me to accomplish what the program dictates in that prescribed time frame? Correct?:confused:

What happens if I'm not able to pick up the info in that alloted time frame? Am I recycled and have to cough up more cash? Given a refund? Or is the spring-loaded chair operated at full-tilt?:D


atp

That is a little hard to explain. I instruct for ATP, and the prices is made for all of your training. The good part about it is that you can use all the sim time you need and all the instructor time you can get as long as you stay within the alotted time frame. So if you do have a hard time, hopefully your instructor will put more effort into your training, and you can always sim if needed. Does that answer your question?

I guy I met that goes to ATP is transfering out of their Daytona Campus because he said the training is horrible! Glad they don't take the GI Bill, I would hate to waste my money there.

One guys horrible is the next guys okay.

I think ATP has figured out how to min standard all the ratings and set up an in house CFI program to keep it all rolling along.

I don't think 90 days from PPL to CFIMEI, and going right into instructing, is very good system for producing excellent aviators. But you get your ratings and build your time.

As always, no matter what school you go to, the biggest factor is what YOU put into it and the second is how good your CFI is.

You are better off at a flight training academy, any academy, than a local FBO. For the most part local FBO are stocked with slacker / crooked CFIs that have no interest in your training. Their main motivation in life is to log another 0.1 hours in their books.

Do yourself a favor. Go with a company, any company, with a proven track record for producing pilots.

The notion that a person shouldn't go from 0 - Commercial pilot w/ instructor ratings in 90 days is DE727s opinion.

There is absolutely no problem with a 90 days pilot. Flight academies that do produce the 90 day pilots do a good job and it only shows how much time is wasted at the local FBO...I mean it takes months to get your PPL.

-LAFF

LAFF has never attended ATP and bases all of his opinions on a bad experience at ONE FBO.

FBOs are going to make the same amount of money if you do your training fast, or slow. No matter where you go, the ultimate factor is you. One of my good friends and coworkers went from instrument rating to airline in less than 10 months and was paid for the last 4 months working as a CFI.

And for those academies being so great, two of three that attended ATP failed indoc in my class and another two that went to other academies failed out. All three that were from a traditional backgrond were older and had a very hard time transitioning back to a learning environment. They get you the ratings fast but that doesn't make you capable.

Take a look at the list of those hired from ATP. There aren't a ton that were there less than a year. I see a lot of people that spent $50,000 and over a year to get there. Doesn't sound like a fast track to me.

And that all FBO CFI's are crooked slackers is your opinion. I love the academy I am going to but I had some FBO flight training before I came here. My opinion? For me the academy is the best way to pursue my flight training. My opinion on the FBO I went to? Best flight training I ever would have received. The CFI was extremely knowledgeable, had been around the industry for quite some time, practically lived at the FBO, and would bend over backward to help another pilot (especially a student). In fact, of all the FBO CFI's I have met I've only met one that I didn't like.

LAFF I'm sorry but you're going to find lazy time building, money grubbing CFI's everywhere, probably a higher concentration of them at a fast track academy than an FBO contrary to what you would lead everyone to believe.

The ultimate factor in passing any training (airline, academic, military) is the individual.

Flight training academies do an excellent job at giving their students the information they need to be capable pilots.

It is up to the individual pilots to decide how/at what level they will apply that information.

If I had been in your initial newhire class I would have helped the students struggling. Perhaps, the problem is not their ability but your lack of leadership.

LAFF

Since you decided to take the low road with a personal attack, many of us did study together late into the night every night during training, including a couple that failed out. We invited everybody to join us, and it worked well. After a couple failed the first oral (including myself) we were in the hotel lobby reviewing every day during the week leading up to our retests, sometimes until 3am.

I find a comment about leadership pretty funny coming from somebody that follows a bunch of shiny ads and flashy web sites with ZERO actual experience. Sounds like you do a good job following the hype.

As has been pointed out, LAFF has gone no farther than the PPL. His posting history resulted in him being restricted from the professional fourms at this site.

As always, APC users need to keep LAFF's background in mind when considering his posts.

BS Flag. You have it backwards. Instructors specifically go to ATP to get hours as quick as possible. All instructors at ATP care about another 0.1 hours in their books. At a local FBO, you are much more likely to get a lifer instructor, or someone who cares about instructing enough to do it for a living (thus making a decent wage). How many career instructors are there at ATP? 0. How many instructors at ATP had never touched an airplane 6 months ago? Way too many.

It is also my opinion. In fact, I am willing to bet it is just about everyone's opinion on this site (with the exception of wannabe's who were brainwashed by ATP marketing, like LAFF).

There is nothing special about ATP. You fly a lot. If you fly twice a day at a local FBO, you could do your PPL in 55 days (faster than ATP's 60 day course). All you do at ATP is fly a lot, and they train you to bare MINIMUM standards. At a local FBO, they train you to become a true aviatior/pilot.

Arguing with you is like arguing with SkyHigh. Most people just ignore you because they know you are wrong. The only difference is some of these newbies may not know the difference, so it is important to raise the BS flag on ALL of your posts.
But hey LAFF, if you want to waste an EXTRA $20,000-30,000 dollars on training at ATP, that decision is yours. I won't lecture you about THROWING YOUR MONEY AWAY. I will however be skeptical if you are sitting in a cockpit next to me, knowing you were trained to the bare MINIMUM standards.

Yes, it does!!! I'll study hard and have fun too. Definitely will use all available resources that are at my disposal. Thanks.


atp

BS - FBO CFIs don't train you to become true pilots. Come on - you really think that? You can fly as much as you want at an FBO. Unfortunately, all you are doing is wasting your time and money. Chances are your CFI will be happy to log another 0.1 on your dime.

There is nothing wrong with flight academies turning out pilots in 90 days.

-LAFF

APC users need to read DE727's bio, he has modestly made it his signature line, when considering his posts.

I for one truly value is insights / opinions on aviation. I'm honored to considerer him a friend.

-LAFF

I have to disagree:

My CFI has upwards of 13k hours and has no intentions of leaving.Great person all around,very experienced,patient,fun to be around,great stories, you name it. I have learned alot from him and yes I fel I am becoming a true pilot because of him also.

Avaiton is like any other job when its boiled down to its simplest form; there are bad apples in every bunch.

I have nothing against ATP,I even considered going there at one time.If you train in 90 days or over 2-3 years, it comes down to what you make of it and what you put into it. Just my .02

ATP trains you to pass a check ride, nothing else. I've flown with a few of their zombie pilots. It's downright scary.

Yes there is. Don't forget that 50 people in the back are counting on that 300 hour wonder pilot not to auger it in when the left engine is on fire, the trims have run away and the captain is incapacitated.

LAFF, I can tell that you belong at ATP. A kool-aid drinking irrational pilot with no real world experience and a ton of cash to waste... yep, prime ATP material. ;)

dang you guys are hatin

First off, there is no reason for people to judge how and where you became a pilot. That does not determine how well or poorly you fly. I have flow with a handful of guys who instructed for years, became fo's for 2, now they are captains, and they are not very good pilots. I went to ATP. I am not ashamed to say it. Do I agree with everything they do? Of course not. But, their system works. So some of you are saying that because a pilot becomes an instructor in 90 days, that doesn't make him or her a good pilot. So does that mean students who go through the 10 month program are better pilots, even though they are alotted the same amount of flight time. I would say no. Experience is not only a time frame, but an hours of an aviator are. So lets say a pilot has flown for 10 years and has 2000 hours. Does that make him better than someone who has flown for 5 years and has 2000 hours, no. In aviation, it is about currency. While I was flight instructing, I had some students who came in more frequently than others, and they were the better pilots for the most part. Even though both guys had just around the same total time. Does an instructor know everything after 90 days, no, but neither does the guys who took a year to get his ratings. Most people start instructing with total time just over 250 hours. What makes the guys who took longer better? Nothing. The frequency of your flying experience makes a big difference. When I was in the Navy, I flew with a guy who was a Hornet driver, he told me that if he doesn't fly over a 7 day period, he feels extremely rusty. This is a winged Naval Aviator. Now how do you think a young student pilots feels if he/she doesn't fly for a week. I don't know what makes alot of you judge ATP students and instructors this way, but you have no idea of what you are talking about. Honestly, what makes a good pilot is his/her god given talent. That is the case with all professions. I have been told by almost every captain the I flew with that I was the one of the best if not the best FO's they had ever flown with. They all told me that I would make an excellent captain. I am not saying that to make myself feel better, but I am a product of ATP, that just goes to show that 90 days doesn't mean anything. I don't know if some of you are p@#sed off that you spent alot of time as a student and flight instructor and wish that you could have done it the ATP way or what. I have never judged anyone about where they did there flight training, only on how they can manuever the aircraft and the ability to make sound decisions.

"but you have no idea of what you are talking about"

What I'm talking about is going from PPL to CFIMEI in 90 days and thinking you have the seasoning, experience, and background to be a great CFI to the next 90 day guy that comes along.

"I don't know if some of you are p@#sed off that you spent alot of time as a student and flight instructor and wish that you could have done it the ATP way or what"

(Mod insert: Please don't try to bypass the filter by changing the way a word is spelled)

Not ticked off. I'm simply expressing my opinion based on being a CFI since 1980, having had a less than impressive experience with ATP, having a good friend who had a less than impressive experience with ATP (after I recommeded the place to him), and having read many things, pro and con, since aviation websites were invented. It's like your saying anybody who has a negative opinion about ATP is simply wrong. That's laughable, after all the posts I've read over the years.

Think about this. The 90 day program. That is 90 days of aviation. That is all you do, is study, fly, take writtens, and checkrides. When you were getting your instructor ratings, how long did it take, and did you fly and study everyday? I am not saying you didn't, I am just curious. Some of the guys who come out of ATP think that they are gods gift to aviation. There are instructors and pilots like that everywhere. By no means did I think that I was a great instructor day one, who is. Anyone who says that they were the best instructor they could be just starting out is lying. It took me a little while to totally feel comfortable. After I was finished with the 90 day program, you don't go straight into instructing. I was working in the dispatch office for almost 2 months. Most of us down there continued to study waiting for a location that we had requested to open up. We studied and went into the sim alot. We also flew with students who had just gotten the PPL. We taught them basic intruments skills while they built up their cross country time. In order to instruct in the multis for ATP, you have to take a check with the chief pilot. He is not the most experience aviator out there, but he is a former Cobra pilot in the army, has all of the ratings for both helos and fixed wing aircraft. Has something like 5000 hours just in the seminole. So his resume isn't so bad. But like I said before, I don't agree with some of the ways that ATP operates, I have my own negative opinions about some things there, and some of the times, the chief pilot isn't available to give check rides, so I think that there are some bad apples that make it through. But you can't tell me that in all of your years of aviation, you have never looked over at the guy next to year and thought to yourself, how did this guys make it through training?