Complex endorsement???
 

This may seem like a silly basic question but am curious if I need it. Do I need a complex endorsement just to rent a Piper Arrow?

Reason I ask is I am military and did not aquire my ratings in the usual process progressing up through all the ratings. Here is what I have: SEL, MEL, and RW commercial-Instrument, ME ATP. I fly RC-12's and have BE300 series type rating. I do have a high performance sign off from flying FSI 182's during the start of the Army FWMEQC.

Complex pertains to airplanes with retractable gear, flaps, and constant speed prop. It has got to have all 3 to qualify as complex. I am not sure if some variations of Arrrows might have all 3 items.

Thanks for the answer, but I was aware of the complex details part of the aircraft. The Piper Arrow does have all three. The local FBO has one for rent but I do not have a "complex endorsement" in my logbook although I fly a multi-engine turbo-prop aircraft everyday here in Iraq.

I am asking can I fly a general aviation "complex" aircraft based on I already fly a much more complex aircraft along with type rating.

Like I said, I have a high performance endorsement, but I went from that straight to multi-engine turbine after 3200 hours flying AH-64 Apaches.

You might have to take a CFI with you to get checked out. But given what you fly, I'd say it will be short. Since you have an ATP which is usually done in a complex A/C, I'd say they won't give you too much trouble. Talk to the FBO and see what they can do for you.

I agree with "the King." Won't hurt, least it'll be in your book and simplify things in the future.

When I was working with the AF these issues came up quite a bit. Unfortunately you'll still need the civilian signoff. Reason being is military avaition and civil avaition are seperate groups. It sucks I know as most mil guys are above and beyond anything joe blow civi ever hopes to be.

I remember some of the guys getting waivers or having their military licenses converted but I'm unsure. I hope others can help. Either way there is no time requirement so just do a lap around the pattern with someone and get your book signed then go have some fun:D

To act as PIC of a high-performance airplane you must have:

a: Logged and received ground and flight training from an authorized flight instructor in a high-performance airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a high-performance airplane and have been found proficient in the operation of systems of that airplane.

b: Received and logged a one-time endorsement in your logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies you are proficient to operate a high-performance airplane.

Hope that helps. It's from my PPL oral exam guide.

I have a high performance endorsement, but not a complex. I do have all my civilian ratings, just not the "complex" endorsement for an airplane that has constant speed prop, flaps, and retractable landing gear, even though the airplane I fly everyday has all that plus 1200shp a side.

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Well to rent thew plane they require 5 hours dual with them, so endorsement required or not I'll have it after I have met their rental requirements. Just funny that I have flown a lot of fixed gear high performance and have thousands of hours in big acft but have to do 5 hours dual. I could understand 1 hour dual to check-out like before I rent a 172.

You have my sympathy on that one. I have been through a number of checkouts in the last few years that I thought were totally unnecessary. To rent a 172 you will have to spend $500 showing them you can do turns around a point and power off stalls. FAA certificate holders are already approved to do these things; so where do they get off second-guessing the FAA? I can see merits of having minimum hour requirements to qualify to fly a certain aircraft, but I have never seen they will allow relaxation of the checkout based on flight experience one already has.

5 hours seems like a lot. I understand 2 or 3, but 5? See if the instructor will give you the Complex Endorsement though if you go through with the checkout. They should be able to and if they won't, I would question their operation. After 5 hours we give the endorsement to our Commercial applicants. I don't see why they wouldn't for you.

Right on. There is a give and take in forces determining checkout requirements among renters and clubs that own aircraft, and I think they are out of balance these days. Checkout procedures are reactionary in that they tend to respond to accidents, rising litigation, rising costs of aircraft and of course the profit motive, but without sufficient counter forces such as lower accident rates, lower fleet utilization, and safer aircraft & aircraft systems cinching it back down, the bar just gets too high. It is to the point that a 500 plus-hour piston single or twin pilot has spend $500 just to get approved to fly around the patch and has to do it over for each minor variation in aircraft type or equipment in the fleet. It has an autopilot? 4 hour checkout. It goes to 25,000 feet? 5 hour checkout. It goes 160 knots? It has a turbo on it? 5 hour checkouts. The pilot customer doesn't do it because it's so ridiculous and the planes sit idle without any arguable advantage. An idle aircraft isn't safer, it just isn't being used.

Your military experience does not matter in this case. You WILL need the complex endorsement in order to avoid breaking the law. But it's easy to get...you will need a club checkout anyway, just tell the instructor in advance that you need a complex endorsement at the same time. It should only require a little extra time on the ground to discuss the prop governor and RPM vs. MP technique.

The 5 hour checkout is most likely required per their issurance. The reason being is because it is complex, insurance is higher for those aircraft and so they require a longer checkout.

I see your point, but I can personally attest to multiple experiences checking out airline pilots in C172s. I notice 2 common things:

1. Flying final approach at 120
2. Starting the roundout and flare more than 50 feet above the ground.

I see your points. But I am not an airline pilot that flys a heavy or does very little GA flying. I fly a very souped up Super King Air that happens to weigh 16,500 pounds with 1900 parts all over it and 1200hp a side . My military stuff is moot. I have all my civilian ratings, SEL and MEL commercial instrument, type rating in 300 series King airs. I also have my high perf. endorsement.

What I am saying or asking, why isn't flying a King Air with retractable gear, two constant speed props, and flaps considered a complex aircraft? For which I should just be given the endorsement? We have three CFII rated pilots in my unit that are also our military instructor pilots, one has said he will sign my endorsement and it should be totally legal. I think it silly that I have to be "trained" on a "complex" aircraft, like how a constant speed prop works, what a prop governor is, how a speeder spring and fly weights work, and how now I have to remember to put the gear down. See my point?? My beef is I understand 5 hours for insurance, but to say I don't have a "complex endorsement" so I have to pay them to "teach" the differences between flying a 172 and a "complex" aircraft, total BS. I fly my father in laws C-182 all the time, it has a CS prop, I know how to manage MP vs. prop rpm (also what I got my High perf endorsement in), I just want to be able to rent a local Piper Arrow which adds retracts to the equation. Does this make sense? I am probably going to walk in and have 4 to 8 times the hours of my CFI or more. Yes, I fly my approaches at 120 kias and do start roundout at 50 or more feet , but fly many different aircraft including medium twin engine helicopters, I don't confuse those with fixed wing flying, I fly each aircraft based on how it is suppose to be flown.

...sounds like you should have your complex endorsement already...

It doesn't matter what you think, just get the endorsement if you want to rent the plane.

This is why you won't just be "given" the endorsement, and it isn't fair to criticize a flight school for complying with the FARS. No matter how high and mighty we might think we are, we still have to comply with the rules and check the required boxes:

If you meet 61.32 (e)(2), the you do not need an endorsement. Otherwise, it doesn't matter what you fly in the service, you need a complex endorsement to act as PIC in a complex aircraft. There should not be a problem having your squadron mates give you the endorsement, provided they have complied with 61.31 (e)(i) and (ii).

The 5 hour check out is probably for the insurance requirements for the Arrow, which are crazy now. The insurance policy probably requires 5 hours in type to act as PIC as an unnamed pilot. Its possible they could name you as a PIC after checking with the underwriter and providing him with some of your flight times.

Thanks for the info, I will just have my Standardization Instructor pilot sign me off.