Airline Pilot Central Forums - Does VFR at night w/ no vis ref = IFR?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sqwkvfr (Post 308515)

How would darkness alone preclude him from seeing other aircraft?

That doesn't make any sense....he said it was clear, so if another aircraft flew within sight, he'd easily be able to see their nav/anti-collision lights.

Of course, if he's looking out the window. But if your on instruments your not outside.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoilerWings (Post 308688)

FAR 61.51(g)(1): A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely be reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument conditions.

Conclusion: You must fly by sole reference to instruments AND be in IMC to log instrument flight time. Over the water at night with no horizon is still VMC. Thus, you cannot log instrument flight time.

That's all I needed to hear. I wasn't sure about rules and whatnot, but that sums it up completely.

Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoilerWings (Post 308688)

King is right on...

FAR 1.1: General Definitions states: "IFR Conditions means weather conditions below the minimum for flight under visual flight rules."

This implies that weather is the operative word.

FAR 61.51(g)(1): A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely be reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument conditions.

Conclusion: You must fly by sole reference to instruments AND be in IMC to log instrument flight time. Over the water at night with no horizon is still VMC. Thus, you cannot log instrument flight time.

I honestly have to disagree, there's been some mention that in the case of Over-water operations, you can log Act. Inst. because you have no true reference to the horizon, so you can log it as IMC.

In this case, at night, there's no distinct horizon since obviously being over-water there's no lights etc... But the weather conditions are VMC. So yes, you need those instruments to keep it straight and level, at altitude, while still operation in VFR conditions.

The FAR's always present the situation of "safe vs. legal." This is one of those. Is it legal, yup, is it necessarily safe, maybe, but it can be done!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewfflyer (Post 309617)

regardless the FAR's still say "solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument conditions"

Short Answer:

Legally, the regs seem to give you the lattitude to log IMC at night based on poor horizon reference.

Realistically, the accepted industry practice is to log clouds as IMC, and night as night.

I would not want to get a job based on a large amount of IMC that didn't involve clouds...I have heard of cases where employers researched Wx history to validate suspicious IMC claims.

When employers say actual IMC in a aircraft, we all know what they mean. The FAR's have nothing to do with it in this case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 309810)

Short Answer:

I would not want to get a job based on a large amount of IMC that didn't involve clouds...I have heard of cases where employers researched Wx history to validate suspicious IMC claims.

Seems excessive, but I could see a few cases where a 500hr pilot has 50-100+hrs of actual though.