Does VFR at night w/ no vis ref = IFR?
01-27-2008, 02:58 PM
#1
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Does VFR at night w/ no vis ref = IFR?
I flew a bunch of charters this past summer that took me over the ocean at night. It was prefect VFR, but there were no visual references. No moon, no horizon, I couldn't see any lights from land... solely instruments.
So my question is: Since I was flying using only my instruments (not because I wanted to, but because I was forced to) is it loggable as IFR? I can't come to a decisive answer myself.
On one hand, I think no, it's not loggable, because it wasn't IMC. On the other hand, I didn't have ANY outside visual references and was relying on instruments alone.
So my question is: Since I was flying using only my instruments (not because I wanted to, but because I was forced to) is it loggable as IFR? I can't come to a decisive answer myself.
On one hand, I think no, it's not loggable, because it wasn't IMC. On the other hand, I didn't have ANY outside visual references and was relying on instruments alone.
01-27-2008, 03:24 PM
#2
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1. If you had to rely totally on your instruments you should NOT have been VFR. If you are flying VFR it is because your eyeballs are outside the airplane looking at the other airplanes around you, not just that there are 3 SM of viz and cloud clearances. I wouldn't keep that practice up if I were you not only for legal but for safety reasons.
2. If you are on a IFR flight plan I would log IMC anytime you need to rely on your instrumentation to fly the AC. In the military we co-log all night time as instrument time per our regs if that helps you out. Sure a lot of the time you are not going to need to fly IFR but I think it's because the AF wants us flying on the gauges at night.
2. If you are on a IFR flight plan I would log IMC anytime you need to rely on your instrumentation to fly the AC. In the military we co-log all night time as instrument time per our regs if that helps you out. Sure a lot of the time you are not going to need to fly IFR but I think it's because the AF wants us flying on the gauges at night.
01-27-2008, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by GRDHound
1. If you had to rely totally on your instruments you should NOT have been VFR. If you are flying VFR it is because your eyeballs are outside the airplane looking at the other airplanes around you, not just that there are 3 SM of viz and cloud clearances. I wouldn't keep that practice up if I were you not only for legal but for safety reasons.
That doesn't make any sense....he said it was clear, so if another aircraft flew within sight, he'd easily be able to see their nav/anti-collision lights.
01-27-2008, 05:11 PM
#5
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I fly a few hours every night over mountainous terrain with few if any manmade lights (usually watch the AF guys in the MOA shooting flares around), if the moon is anything less than 1/2, you wont see any discernable horizon. I log all of that as night vfr.
01-27-2008, 06:18 PM
#6
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Originally Posted by sqwkvfr
How would darkness alone preclude him from seeing other aircraft?
That doesn't make any sense....he said it was clear, so if another aircraft flew within sight, he'd easily be able to see their nav/anti-collision lights.
That doesn't make any sense....he said it was clear, so if another aircraft flew within sight, he'd easily be able to see their nav/anti-collision lights.
01-27-2008, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by hotelmode
I think what he was getting that is that if your eyes are inside looking at the instruments so you don't kill yourself, you can't look outside for traffic.
01-27-2008, 07:13 PM
#8
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Dang, the FAR site is down. Anyway, I feel pretty confident that Part 61 says you can log instrument time when you are flying solely by instrument reference AND under simulated or actual instrument conditions.
01-27-2008, 07:42 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by sqwkvfr
I don't buy that, either. How would anyone without this ability look for a runway on an ILS approach in IMC?
I think you would agree, however, that a runway of any size is easier to spot than a few nav lights.
01-27-2008, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitragorz
I flew a bunch of charters this past summer that took me over the ocean at night. It was prefect VFR, but there were no visual references. No moon, no horizon, I couldn't see any lights from land... solely instruments.
So my question is: Since I was flying using only my instruments (not because I wanted to, but because I was forced to) is it loggable as IFR? I can't come to a decisive answer myself.
On one hand, I think no, it's not loggable, because it wasn't IMC. On the other hand, I didn't have ANY outside visual references and was relying on instruments alone.
So my question is: Since I was flying using only my instruments (not because I wanted to, but because I was forced to) is it loggable as IFR? I can't come to a decisive answer myself.
On one hand, I think no, it's not loggable, because it wasn't IMC. On the other hand, I didn't have ANY outside visual references and was relying on instruments alone.
FAR 1.1: General Definitions states: "IFR Conditions means weather conditions below the minimum for flight under visual flight rules."
This implies that weather is the operative word.
FAR 61.51(g)(1): A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely be reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument conditions.
Conclusion: You must fly by sole reference to instruments AND be in IMC to log instrument flight time. Over the water at night with no horizon is still VMC. Thus, you cannot log instrument flight time.
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