Commercial Checkride
 

My Commercial Airplane SEL checkride is in two weeks or so...

Inevitably, I will be asked about certain situations where I have an opportunity to get paid or compensated to fly… Any tips or things to add about analyzing a situation and determining if you can do it legally under Part 91, or 119 – or if a 135 operator permit will be needed to conduct the flight…

Thanks :)

As a commercial pilot essentially all you can legally do for hire is flight instruct;

when in doubt, I would err on the cautious side and decline any offer to "work for hire." (especially when holding out is believed to be involved in the equation.)

Yeah, safest thing is decline anything that is not flight instructing, or performed under a 135 or 121 certificate. About the only thing you can safely do in part 91 without getting in a grey area would be flight instruction or operating an aircraft provided by someone else.

An examiner should be OK with your decision to stay out of that "holding out' grey area.

Remember the pilot and the plane can't come from the same source. If they do you must all be going to wherever you are going for the same reason and everyone must pay the pro rata share for the flight expenses.

Also-compensation comes in more forms then just money. Goodwill (Getting paid nothing with the expectation of future benefits) and even just logging flight time can be considered compensation.

I was given this scenario during my oral:

You (a commercial pilot) and another commercial pilot are sitting around at the local FBO when a guy on crutches walks in. He askes out loud if there are any commercial pilots here. You and the other pilot glance at each other while the guy continues on saying that he flew in yesterday and broke his leg and needs to get home. Hes looking for someone to fly him and his plane back home, he also says that he can't pay you but he'll buy you a airline ticket home tomarrow. You stand up and say sure your a commercial pilot and will do it (Knowing that the plane and pilot are coming from different sources and figuring you'll atleast be able to log a few free hours).

What do you think, is what you just did illegal or not?

Thank you everyone for the help so far!

As for JMT21's situation:

At first It seems that it would be legal, considering the commercial pilots did not advertise or seek the customer to be flown back home. Also, the plane is being provided seperately.

Yet this sounds like a trick question...If a commercial pilot gains a reputation too transport anyone anytime in their aircraft, the pilot could be considered a commercial operator. The pilot is being compensated by the flight time, and transportation back - still, since this is a one time flight, I believe this to be a legal commercial operation, and can be conducted under Part 91.

??? well??

Since no money appears to have been offered, this really looks more like an act of charity. The ticket home is not compensation, every employer provides travel for their employees as a cost of doing business.

As to whether the flight time itself is "compensation"...you might have to look at the status of the pilot in the industry. If I were to arrive home after a 4 day trip in my airliner and someone were to imply that just giving me the opportunity to fly their light recip is compensation enough...I'd laugh in their face.

Even if the flight time is compensation, you do not appear to be holding out in any way.

I'm not advocating this, and don't tell the examiner this, but the way some folks have covered their ass in situations like this (assuming you're a CFI) by logging dual-given to the person in the other seat. Obviously, you can't do this for the same guy on a long-term basis, but it works for occasional deals. A flight review or some occasional hood work is entirely reasonable for a qualified pilot. A pilot might also legitimately want to take a CFI along on a cross-country if he is not real familiar with the route. A rated pilot can always get dual-given for any reason or no reason. If the passenger is not a pilot, then an Intro flight might be in order..

I gave an answer similar to what you fellas said, just talked my through it and let him know what I knew. He mentioned how gray an area it really is, and never really said whether it would have been legal or not. He made the point that the flight hours could be considered compensation (I would agree with Rick though, it depends where you are in your career; another way around it other then logging it as dual given is to not log it at all as you only need to log time in furtherance of training or for proficiency). Another point he made (although I think is a bit of a stretch) is you jumping up and saying you would fly him might be considered holding out. Good luck on you checkride, go through the commercial oral exam guide and you should be sitting pretty. For more details (definitions and such) on the privileges of a commercial pilot there is an advisory circular out there.

On my commercial checkride, I got asked almost all 135 questions with duty times, SIC requirements, etc. My examiner was a commuter capt. So I sort of understood why he would ask those questions. I think he figured that as a commercial pilot you can fly for an airline or 135 op so you should know some regulations even though you'll end up as a CFI or fire spotter first. Many have disagreed with him asking those questions but IMO I would ask those questions too. You figure as a commercial pilot you can act as SIC for a 121 company so you should knowledgable about pertainanet regulations. Now the insurance companies would not even let you open the door of a king Air with the hours you'll have after your check ride but your given enough hours and time you could be a commercial pilot flying passengers. Find out what your examiner does besides being a DE. If he or she flies a CJ for a 135 Company than you may want to prepare for 135 questions, maybe. Good luck

Chris

:confused: That's the first time I've ever heard of a comm applicant being asked 135 questions (I have LOTS of dual-given and student sign-offs). That stuff is NOT in the PTS; if somebody failed one of my students over that I'd throw the BS flag. 135 and 121 operations have set training requirements for new-hires, which would include that kind of stuff, Those questions are in the ATP question bank for a reason (not in the commercial bank). Just my opinion...

This may seem like a rant (it's really not; just a question), but why is the FAA so anal about how and when an individual can earn money or recieve "compensation" as a pilot? I totally understand minimum flight experience and demonstration of skills, but in general why are they so concerned? I'm not sure if I agree with the whole pro-rating thing either, where I have to pay part of the rental/operating cost. I think it all makes time building needlessly difficult and in some cases the rules seem kinda pointless. Any thoughts/answer??

Yeah thats what everybody says. His checkrides are really intresting. On my multi commercial he pulled the mixture on the ground roll with a sheet of ice for a rwy. Needless to say we went right off the rwy. Lucky the rwy is snow blowed and it was light fluffy snow so he got out and checked the airplane. We started the engine and taxied out and took off. That was probably the worst checkride I ever had. The door poped open twice after takeoff and just a disaster but I passed. I thought for sure I failed after going off the rwy but, I think he realized it was his fault.

Chris

Which advisory circular may help with this question?

Probably so the insurance people know when to blame you as not being qualified when a passenger bumps his head. Hahaha

AC 120-12A

But really, this whole subject should be about 90 seconds of your oral.

Probably the only aspect of this that realistically applies is that common carriage requires point A to B transport...this means you can give all the local sightseing tours you like, for hire, as long as you return to the airport of origin (insurance permitting). At least that was the way we always interpreted it...

Thank you very much.

Just remember, nobody cares how you get your experience down the road. If I were to do it again I would not hesitate flying for pay if I could get the gig. Screw the FAA. They are only interested in protecting their own butts in the name of public safety. The NTSB recommendations are constantly blown off in favor of the airlines/aircraft manufactures to the detriment of pilots and the public. Don't let their BS rules hamsting your career progression. Just be safe and don't be stupid and get over your head.

You have to know how to answer the question on your oral but after that, just fly. By the way, questions about rest and pt.135 have no place on a commercial oral. If you are asked those kind of questions, answer that you will obey the FOM (Flight ops manual) of the operator and will learn the specifics of the type of operation when you get employed by an operator. The rules are widely varied and depend on many variables.

In 14 CFR Part 1.1 Definitions and Abbreviations - you will find a definintion for Commercial Operator:

"...means a person who, for compensation or hire, engages in the carriage by aircraft in air commerce of persons or property other than as an air carrier...Where it is doubtful that an operation is for compensation or hire, the test applied is whether the carriage by air is merely incidental to the person's other business or is, in itself, a major enterprise for profit."

The FAA is VERY LIBERAL in interperting this statement. The scenario presented would be "for compensation and hire" because the flight is not incidental to the commercial pilot, but for the pure benefit of the passenger. As someone else said in the thread, opportunity for free flight time has been interperted in the past by the FAA as compensation to an aspiring commercial pilot.

That said what can a basic 250 hr commercial pilot do? That's found in 14 CFR Part 119.1 (e) - it contains a list of activities including student instruction, ferry (aircraft only, not pax) or training flights, banner towing, crop dusting, etc. - 119.1 (e) (1) - 119.1 (e) (10). Anything else most likely, but not necessarily, will fall under Part 121, 135, or 125. This is why the FAA has a fairly easy process (for the FAA) under Part 135 to obtain a "single pilot" 135 certificate to allow carriage of passengers, and it does require the PIC have more time than the basic 250 hours.

Your CFI should be able to go over this in detail with you.

There are AC's on this...I will look for them in a moment.

It's AC 120-12A. You can download it from FAA dot Gov. The FAA used to have a great word doc of frequently ask questions for part 61, 91, and 141. It gave their interpertations on many subjects. But it appears to have been removed from their website. In fact it looks like a lot reformating of information is going on on their website since I last had to search it.

Hope that helps. I know your DPE will be looking for you to respond with some knowledge of common carriage, holding out, and the activities listed under 119.1 (e) when he starts with Area of Operation I, Task A - Certificates and Documents, 1.a. ... and on and on... :)

Oops. I should read closer. I see rickair7777 has already given you the AC. And I agree - it should be one question and about 90 seconds max of conversation.

Thank you WEACLRS for your detailed response.

Let me verify that I understand you correctely.

Part 119.1, and Private Carriage operations done under Part 91, and also 125 according to the circular are the only operations that a Commercial Pilot can do legally without a special 121, or 135 something or other certificate.

And I find it interesting that a single pilot 135 cert. can be obtained fairly easily, is it just a general 135 cert. or is it just permission to do a single flight? So for example, if I (a commercial pilot, current in all regards) am sitting in the hanger minding my own business, and someone asks for a commercial pilot to fly them in their OWN airplane back home, I would need a 135 cert?

I know you mentioned the question, is it incidental to their business as being imporant of course, in this situation, or a similar one, would it matter if the flight was or was NOT incidental to their business, and would it matter if I (the pilot) was compensated just for the costs of the flight, fuel etc, or that plus some extra money just for doing the job...

thanks, this is turning into a helpful discussion!

A couple orlando FSDO check airman and even our schools POI interprets you sitting in your hangar or a hangar or an office at the airport as advertising you are a comercial pilot willing to fly for anyone anytime. (advertising , holding out, common carriage)

Seems like grasping to me but they give the checkrides.

Remember laws and regs were made for lawers not pilots.

Exactly. The FAA has determined this is "holding out". The incedental interpertation applies to you, not the passenger (client). In other words lets say you need to fly from point A to point B for a legit reason and the potential passenger just so happens needs to go to the same place at the same time. Then, just like a private pilot, you can share expenses in your airplane or an airplane you rent. But if the sole reason for the flight is to take him to his destination in his airplane and you have no reason to go there other than to fly him, then be very, very careful. You can fly him under private carriage, ie, you become his personal corporate pilot for his personal airplane with a contract, but this has been a gray area in the past. The FAA wants to see a contract and performance under the contract. The FAA is not so concerned about you and your boss, but the innocent (maybe not-so-innocent :) ) passengers your boss may ask you to carry. Many corporate flight operations are performed under part 135 for this reason.

Lets just say you are fairly safe if you stick to the list in 119.1 (e). That's why so many aspiring airline pilots go the CFI route as it's specific in the regs and airlines understand what being a CFI is about.

I'm not the FAA. But I believe so. The FAA's primary concern is safety. And I believe, without looking it up, under Part 135 you need a min of 1200 TT, with some additional sub-times to fly passengers as PIC. If you notice under the list in Part 119.1(e) (Part 119 breaks out which operations fall under what regs. The various parts - 125, 121, 135 - detail whats required in those operations), there are no passenger carrying operations beyond 25 miles and even some of those have restrictions. That's why CFI's in this situation will give "instruction" to their new "student" to try to avoid problems here. However, the FAA is not dumb. And if they find out and are concerned enough, they will look for a legit reason for the instuction, ie, an aircraft checkout or flight review or IFR currency, etc.

There are various levels of 135 certificates. The least complex is a single-pilot 135. Most small FBO's will have one so they can fly charter in one of their more advance single or mulit-engine airplanes. The certificate will specifically list the pilot (usually just one or two) and the airplane. The next time you're at your FBO ask if they have a single-pilot 135 and if you could see the actual certificate. Single-pilot 135 certificates are easier because you don't need quite all of the various manuals, training programs, op specs, etc. required of larger part 135 and part 121 operations. You still need some of them, however.

Okay, I am sitting down at my Commercial EOC Oral exam, and the guy asks me, "If some random guy walks in with an airplane and wants a commercial pilot to fly him and his airplane back home because he does not like flying at night, I offer to take him.

Is this operation legal or not? The way I have been taught at my flight school up here in Washington, is too determine who has "operational control," in this case I do not have operational control, the guy with the airplane is arranging everything, im just flying. Is this right or wrong, its enough to interpret the regs.

Also I have been told that our Chief Flight Instructor wants too hear that this IS a legal operation, not requiring a 135 cert...

do not forget to refer to FAR 61.133 commercial pilot privileges and limitations. examiners get off on that kind of stuff

This is the gray area we've been talking about. The operation you are describing is not exempted in 119.1(e). So here we go... :)

The scenario you described sounds like noncommon carriage (119.3 Definitions), ie, you are not holding out to others. However 119.23(b) - Operators engaged in passenger-carrying operations...with airplanes when common carriage is not involved - states "each person who conducts noncommon carriage (except as provided in 91.501(b) of this chapter) or private carriage operations for compensation or hire with airplanes having a passenger seat configuration of less than 20 seats...shall (1) comply with...subpart C of this part; (2) conduct those operations in accordance with the requirements of part 135 of this chapter...and; (3) be issued operations specifications in accordance with those requirements.

This is the reg you are potentially running afoul of. Notice it doesn't specify whose airplane. It just says "airplanes". I'd ask my local friendly FAA Operations Inspector before conducting the flight...and I would get his name, number, and make very good notes.

A couple of more things to think about beyond the regulations. Would his insurance company cover you on the flight from a liability standpoint with you as PIC? Probably not...unless it was instruction. If you had an accident or incident, you might be liable for the damages. Most likely his insurance policy would restrict another pilot flying the airplane as PIC without their consent.

Operational control is defined in 14 CFR Part 1.1 - "Operational control, with respect to a flight means the exercise of authority over initiating, conducting or terminating a flight."

Pilot in command is defined in Part 1.1 - "means the person who: (1) has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) holds the appropriate category...

You as the commercial pilot (assuming the aircraft owner is just a private pilot) will be PIC and you do have operational control. The order in which Part 61 describes pilot certification is not random, ie, private - commercial - ATP - CFI. It's in that order for a reason. My job description as a regional airline captain and our company's Flight Operations and Procedures Manual quotes these definitions verbatim. And as PIC I don't arrange to buy the airplane, maintain it, pay for it, even put it in position for it's scheduled flight. I just fly it. :D

Sounds legal to me, it's done all the time. Really, if you don't provide the airplane and the customer does provide the airplane, common carriage would be a real stretch. The only way to run afoul of that would be if the customer has customers of his own or employees who need to ride along on a regular basis.

If he's a rated pilot but uncomfortable with the conditions of a specific flight it is TOTALLY legit for a CFI to go along as a paid safety pilot/baby-sitter. The FAA would far prefer that than another "continued VFR into IMC" event.

I've got an email into a POI I know in Orlando with this question. I will let you know what he has to say...

Yeah let us know what they say, thanks.

I have talked with two FAA inspectors about this question. I talked last night with my acquaintance in the Orlando FSDO and I was in a meeting today with my airline's POI (Washington DC FSDO), and ran the question by both. The answers were consistent and emphatic. And a little surprising to me in that the answers were more constricting than I first thought.

In their comments to me, the scenario presented above is definitely a part 135 operation. A basic 250 hr commercial pilot cannot legally take that flight. Period. The NTSB has had cases like this and has ruled them (after the accidents that occurred) as belonging in part 135 and has upheld the FAA certificate actions.

Rickair7777, I was inclined to agree with you that a flight instructor could make the flight by giving dual instruction. But apparently not. There has been a recent case, which both POI's quoted, where the NTSB upheld the violation of a MEI who was "giving instruction" to a client while enroute to the client's home destination in the client's multi-engine airplane. The flight ended in an incident the FAA investigated. It was found that the purpose of the flight was not instruction, but to take the client and his airplane to its destination, even though the Flight Instructor said he was giving dual. The FAA found the flight was really an illegal part 135 operation and pulled the CFI's instructor and commercial certificates. Flight instruction has to have legitimate instructional purpose, i.e., part of a training syllabus, training program, re-currency, checkout, bi-annual, etc. We all know what was really happening here. The MEI was trying to build multi-time. I cost him his career.

It is perfectly fine for a green commercial pilot to become the private corporate pilot for a single or even two or three private individuals/corporations (PIC or SIC as long as the insurance company approves and, if the aircraft requires a type rating, the commercial pilot must meet the requirements of the type). That's private carriage. Both POI's said just make sure you have a contract. If however you start letting it be known around the airport that you're available to fly whatever, whenever, or it appears that you are through your flight activity, or you start ending up with a lot of clients, now you are holding out and subject to part 135.

Both POI's had the following advice to the new commercial pilot: the list of commercial activities you may receive compensation for is in 119.1(e). Don't stray. That said they also admitted the only way they would probably catch you was after the accident or maybe on a ramp check.

Hope this helps.

Wow, well thats some pretty strong artillary to go into a stage check, and checkride with. I am going to examine this discussion closesly, highlight the FAR's that back it up, and study hard, and hopefully they will either agree with me, or through our disagreement - agree with me how "unclear" the FAR's really are leading too so many different interpretations.

This whole discussion has been very helpful, I have one more question. Whats the deal with the contract and private carriage. What sortuf contract are you talking about, is it a legal agreement to only take them, or their company etc.?

Thanks!

It didn't used to be this way...my FSDO gave us different answers to the same questions. It used to be legit to give instruction whenever a pilot thought he needed it, not just when the regs say he needs it. I did plenty of area fam flights in SOCALs very busy and complicated airspace...what are those clowns thinking? Don't they have better things to do??? :mad:

So it sounds like you flying a client provided airplane is still 135?

Just a contract to perform service. Could just be flying, could include providing security, washing the limo, trimming the shrubs etc.

I have a buddy who worked full time as a pilot for an ex-NFL guy who owned a bunch of strip clubs. He was always doing something else for the guy when he wasn't flying...but the fringe benefits were unbelievable, the guy had an entourage of strippers....:)

Okay so a commercial pilot has to be careful when he advertises or holds out. It's okay to advertise that you simply are a Commercial Pilot, but as far as the operations you are willing to conduct...

You can say you will do anything in 119.1 of course, cause thats all fine and dandy, I am trying to get a better understanding of private carriage.

I understand what private carriage is, but what I don't understand is how you can begin a contract with someone for private carriage... If I am sitting in the FBO and some guy walks in and needs a COMM pilot to fly him in his plane back home for whatever reason, and I accept, is getting a 135 cert. or signing a contract saying you will fly him and only him in that specific plane? Me sitting in the FBO just reading an aviation magazine can be viewed by some as holding out I guess, and since I just got my Comm certificate, I am pretty much down to fly anyone anywhere as long as they ask me and provide the aircraft...

But then it begins to look like common carriage... A holding out or willingness too, transport persons or property, from place to place, for compensation. I think its that AC that mentions someone who gains a repuation to sign a contract for private carriage operations too almost anyone that offers (or like anyone thats in a club inwhich the club is easy to join, and almost anyone could join) can be viewed as the pilot being in operational control, and needing a 135 cert.

It's early, sorry for the garbled paragraphs - if 119.1 and private carriage operations are all a comm pilot can do without obtaining a special 121, 125 or 135 certificate, then I feel its important to understand all ends of the private carriage scheme.

Thanks!

The contract shows a more thought out and careful approach to the relationship with the customer. It also emplies a longer term employment, where you are actually an employee or at least a contractor..

However, if you sat in the FBO with a stack of pre-printed contracts for single-leg commercial flights, that would obviously be holding out...

roger, thanks

Rickair,

I don't think that an area familiarization flight would be considered holding out. That's a legit reason for flight training. If I'm in a mountainous or busy area you bet I'd want to fly with somebody familiar. I'll ask my POI some of these questions next time he's in and post my findings here as well.

Yea, this has been bugging me too. So I called the Orlando inspector again today and got some more clarification about this case.

Any pilot can come to a CFI and say "hey I need some dual in this or that area". The FAA absolutely sees that as legitimate instructional activity. Chuck Yeager himself could ask any CFI for instruction and it would be instructional activity and would be fine.

What this MEI was doing was going out and actively soliciting multi-engine aicraft owners and asking to fly right seat in their aircraft and telling the owners "we'll call it dual". He was then logging the time as PIC. He was taking advatage of his status as a MEI to build multi-time. No real instructional activity was ocurring. That was the problem the FAA had and the NTSB upheld it. The FAA is in no-way limiting a CFI when it comes to giving instruction. In our example, if a pilot comes into a FBO and says "I'm uncomfortable flying at night in my aircraft and I want some dual instruction on my way home. Can someone help me?" That would be fine. If a pilot comes into an FBO and a MEI flight instructor jumps up and says, "hey, can I fly right seat in your C310? We'll just call it dual..." he's in trouble.

Under the scenario presented earlier, yep.

Please do. I'd love to know if the answer is consistent.