USAF vs. ERAU
 

I am a sophmore in high school and am starting to look at aviation colleges. i know there are a bunch of other threads like this but i have some specific questions. My ultimate goal would be to fly for a major airline (eventually fly the 777) i have done lots of research about this. i have concluded that the top two aviation 4 years colleges are the Air Force and Embry-Riddle. I know this is comparing apples and oranges but i can come up with some specific benefits and downsides to both.

Air Force-
Good: they pay for it, high class training, high # of hours logged
Bad: 10 years of service, (not working for any airline until the age of 32?) (you have to take lots of general edu. classes)

Embry Riddle-
Good: High class traing, very specialized trianing (only aviation classes), only 4 years
Bad: EXPENSIVE, not as many hours logged

i have had a hard time finding any sort of aviation major on the air force website, also what ratings do you get in the airforce?
as of now i am leaning towards embry-riddle simply becuase 10 years of service seems like an awful long time. this leads me to another question: about how many hours do you have out of college (embry-ridlle) and how long until you can get a job with a regional or small airline?

Thanks alot, ALex

If you can pass a military pilot physical; go military!

You can't fly in the military unless you're an officer. You can't be an officer unless you have a degree. Unless you're going to the academy I'd do ROTC or the reserves until you finish school.

PS: There are other schools out there that don't cost as much as ER and they'll teach you to be a good pilot. In fact, I'd read the threads on here about with the opinions on aviation degrees.

Do what's right for you, all the advice in the world doesn't mean ******* unless you follow what youw ant to do.

Hit up one of the acadamies. My brother is at the USAFA and they all but guarantee you a flight slot after graduating (Assuming you meet all the medical qualifications and such) plus you get a quality degree for free. I would hesitate from enlisting as they can't guarantee you a flight slot, and as already mentioned you will eventually need a degree. Have you checked out (Actually came and visited) UND? If not you should do so. Theres enough threads out there about UND that all spare you the details-you can look for youself. Good luck in whatever you end up doing.

thanks for there replys. i just visited another forum and found dozens of Anti-Embry Riddle threads. most people say it is a waste of time and money. its so hard to get actual opinions and fliter the biased arrogant gossip.

Yeah but you can get the general idea. I hear a lot more negative things about Riddle then positive. There are even a number of erau grads that have said its not worth it...you'd think they'd be the bias ones. I'm not sure how you came up with erau and the airforce being the top two aviation 4 year schools.

I fly with lots of ERAU grads. They invariably think they got good training, BUT they are bitter about the massive loans they have to pay off. The reason for the bitterness is that the airlines don't give a sh*t about the "quality" of your flight training, for the most part they only want to see specific ratings, a certain number of flight hours, and no FAA violations (or DUIs). If you are independently wealthy, do whatever feels good, otherwise look for the most economical way to get you ratings and flight hours. Military is by far the best deal, otherwise get your ratings and work as a flight instructor. You should be able to get your private, instrument, multi, commercial, CFI, CFII, and MEI for $35-40k roughly. If you are going to pay more than that, ask yourself WHY are you paying more and WHAT are you getting? Remember, better "quality" training is really meaningless at the entry level. You also need a 4 year degree along the way somewhere.

If you are ok with military service and can get into a service academy DO IT. It is an experience that will pay off for the rest of your life, in aviation or otherwise. They are one of the few places where an airline actually will give you extra credit for the quality of the education. I can speak to that from experience. Military aviation is the fastest and surest way into a good commercial aviation job. You won't get there until age 32, but neither will someone who goes the civilian route, and military pay and benefits along the way are beyond compare. Just stay out of helicopters.

Enlisting will NOT get you into aviation (except maybe army helicopters). Enlisting could get you VA benefits to pay for college and flight training if you need that, but Service Academy or ROTC would be better.

Just thought I'd throw in that the USAFA is one of the top ten hardest schools to get into in the nation, while ERAU will take just about anyone...

Their US News admissions rating is "selective"....which means you need to scribble out an essay and be in the top 75% of your high school graduating class. I guess my point is: don't prepare for ERAU and expect to get into a service academy. If you prepare for a service academy, you're guaranteed admission to ERAU.

Here's another consideration: If you go the military route, you'll get both flying experience and management experience. You leave the military with two career possibilities.

i've come up with some specific questions.

1. How many hours do you garduate ERAU with?
2. Can you go to school at ERAU put practice flying at a local airport (in attempt to save $$$)


1. In the Air Force you go to reagular school for four years and then you start your flight training?

thanks

1. It depends on a lot of things. If you're able to meet all their course minimums then you'll have relatively few hours at graduation. Not many people do, and the average is a little over 200. If you finish your flight instructor ratings before graduating (which are not part of the degree curriculum), then you can instruct part time while finishing classes. You'll have a LOT of hours at graduation if you did that. One of my instructors was on the verge of getting hired by a regional by the time he graduated. That's pretty rare.

2. You'll have to get special permission if it's part of your degree program (aero sci) or if you're minoring in flight. Of course, you can also show up to ERAU with some ratings already finished and save money that way. Maybe save up and knock your private out between soph/junior year, and instrument between junior/senior.

3. Not sure about that one...someone else can do better. There is something called Joint Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training in the Air Force, but I think most USAFA cadets start their flight training after graduation.

I have to disagree with that, although it may be meaningless to the airline, the quality of your training, it really is not meaningless. The quality of your training, especially your initial training, will out itself, usually in the most inconvient of times.

To have poor quality entry level training, is like building a house on a poor foundation, yea it may stand, but it could topple, and will it stand against when the weather gets bad??? Everything is built ontop of your entry level (private and instrument) training. The further along you go with poor training, the worse it will be and the harder it is to change your ways.

It may not mean alot when you are applying for a job, but it is most certainly not meaningless. Just because you have more hours, does not make you a better pilot, it is the one with the better quality training, and the quality of the hours they have. (i.e. spent boring holes in the sky on the weekends, or working on upgrades, etc.)

2. You can probably train at a local airport, as long as your major is like Aerospace Engineering or something like that, but I doubt it if you major in their Pilot Program.

From what I hear on the AFA, its only after the four years that you will begin flight training (as long as you meet the reqs. and they need pilots, etc.)

USAFA students usually participate in flight training while in school. However this is essentially civilian-style (FAA) training in GA aircraft (painted USAF colors). UPT is military flight school. The "undergraduate" in UPT really refers to your training prior to being awarded military wings. It has nothing to do with being in college. UPT training always begins after college graduation (unless you're an enlisted army helo pilot).

I agree in some respects. But as it turns out, the FAA and their DPE's do a pretty good job of ensuring baseline quality in newly certificated pilots. This is what airlines want, because their training program (also FAA approved) is designed to build on an FAA standard CMEL. The sort of "quality" I was referring to before was big-name flight school "glossy brochure" quality. This sort of "quality" usually means training on airline operations, advanced aircraft systems, and jet training in a non-motion sim. These same schools then turn around and forbid their students and CFI's to fly in IMC! They hype all this crappola about preparing you to be an airline pilot, but they don't do any more to prepare you to be a CMEL pilot than less costly alternatives.

None of that "quality" is likely to be worth it to someone who, at age 30, is still trying to to pay off an extra $100K+ in student loans, while supporting a wife and child on regional pay.

As I've said before, if you have unlimited financial resources, then a big name school could be fun and interesting. But many folks can't really afford $100K+ to be entertained for a few years.


Can you give me some examples of how much of your extra "quality" training has actually applied in the cockpit of your airliner...and if so didn't your airline teach you that stuff anyway???

Well I am not an airline pilot, but I was just making a comment about quality, but I do agree that places do stop their students from flying in IMC and things like that, are not the best routes.

Just thought it was kind of odd to say that quality of training was meaningless. But now I better understand what you are saying and what you mean.

I do know of someone (not personally) who did mention about his extra "quality" training, when flying for American Eagle (I believe), and how it helped him to cope with an emergency (some type of rudder failure), he, along with the captain, won the APA Airmanship Award, and he cited his flight training (not the training with the Airline) to what helped him in ending the flight safely. I believe the video is on the internet somewhere, not sure, just remember watching it.

Skip Riddle. If you decide to go to college, get a degree that you can get money out of if you lose your medical or just your job.

Save your money, ERAU's training is not all that wonderful and an aviation degree is useless.

Good point. The one item of non-required training that every commercial pilot really should go do is an aerobatic intro and upset recovery training. Usually can be done for a few hundred $$$. CFIs get some of this in spin training.

i was looking at UND and i am impressed. at looked at them before but didnt pay much attention. It is a lot cheaper and you meet 3 times a week with your instructor. this seems like a neat concept. is there any schedule like this at ERAU?

Ok so Im sure im the only one here defending Riddle but oh well. I say this and take it for what you want. I just graduated from ERAU prescott. I cant say enough about it. I learned so much there and not just from the CFI's. The faculty is top notch almost all ex military/airlines and very knowedgeable.I also found many of the students to be knowedgeable and helpfull. The classes are interesting and difficult at times. I am now out of school and working as a CFI in So Cal. I am literally shocked on almost a daily basis with the amount of idiot pilots out there. Sadly enough most of them have thousands of hours. I am now working on my Masters in Crash investigation and human factors, which is a huge push at riddle "safety". I am convinced that Riddle grads are armed with a knowedge that most other flight schools do not posses. I still to date talk with some friends of mine who are now flying for regionals and a few years older than me and I am shocked when they dont know crap about their own industry. However, I do have to say Riddle dose have some down sides. One It is expensive and as it was when I left the going rate was around 800 a unit, do the math. this dose not include flying costs. Also I too have to be honest I was very much Riddleized when I graduated. Meaning I was and to some degree still am very procederal. riddle gears pilot for the airlines not GA flying so I had my own work ahead for me. ERAU has a huge ROTC program and from what I know is well known, and they do some cool stuff. Well with all this said I personally would go back , but this is just me. now I will sit back and take all your belly ackin about how much Riddle sucks.... Good luck.

Ohh and to answer your other thread yes riddle has a 3 times per week schedule. htis is manditory. But if you want to fly more useually you can ask your instructor and he/she will put you on for more flights. We also have ADS-B with is really cool + we have some of the newest A/C around. I promise you will be a damn good pilot when you finish

That's what the ERAU alum keep telling us....:rolleyes:

dude what the heck

well im not saying were perfect but I had a good time and feel i learned a lot.

rheidron thanks for your input. i suppose the deciding factor will probably be cost because when i start college my parents will also be paying for my two older sister that will be in college. i have another question.

1. lets say i just have just started at college (either ERAU or UND). Is there a set lenght of time i will be working for my PPL? does everyone work and the same pace? in other words does everyone earn their certificates at the same time?

2. Within 4 years is it possible to get all the way to a MEI?

Thanks

Here goes........
 

Boeing 777,

I have been hawking this board for quite some time now, and I registered just to reply to this. I try my hardest to avoid coming across as preachy, but I really think the Air Force (and its Academy) has not had a fair shake in this thread (or the board in general). Hopefully this reply will help others considering the Air Force, as well. Disclaimer: This is in no way saying which path to the "gold" is better. This is only meant to be a long ranting on my point of view

Let's start chronologically (getting into the Academy to graduating pilot training). Some people have mentioned how it is hard to get into the Academy. That statement is every bit grounded in reality, BUT it's a very misleading one at that. Take me for instance. At age 17 and nearing college, I cared nothing of my future, unless it involved my fairly successful wrestling career, or where the next party was going to be. Needless to say, my cumulative GPA upon graduation was a 2.7!

One day though, I realized the parties were coming to an end, and I needed a future that didn't involve flipping burgers. How did I end up with an appointment to the AFA? Perseverance. Now THAT is what the Air Force wants to see in its future officer core. Ya ya, they want varsity lettermen, they want leaders, they want the SAT's, they want the GPA, but when it comes down to it, if you show the Air Force that "Dang-it, I don't care what that guy's numbers are or how many clubs he lead, I WANT THIS MORE THAN HIM."

In fact, I didn't even get straight into the Academy! My numbers were SO mediocre, that I had to be admitted to the Air Force Academy Preparatory School (an AWESOME deal) to get my grades up and prove to the Academy that I could hack it. I could start another entire thread on why the Prep school is such a great deal, but I won't. All said, the Prep school is an EXCELLENT year of both academic and personal maturity that you will gain, not to mention a guaranteed slot at the Academy (and you are getting PAID the whole time too!).

Think your grades are still too bad to get into even the Prep School? No prob! There's numerous other routings to ultimately end up at USAFA. Many of my classmates did a one or two semester stint at one of the civilian prep schools: Northwestern Prep, New Mexico prep, Valley Forge (I think). The list can go on. Basically, refer to the above point, if you show PERSEVERANCE, the Academy officials will want you. By attending a military prep school, you are telling them "Hey, look at me, I've done well here at this school, and I'll do the same at yours."

STILL aren't convinced? How about enlisting in the Air Force? My wife, in fact, can attest to this personally. She enlisted in the Air Force with even WORSE grades than mine (she was an even bigger partier than me!). Only one year later in the active duty Air Force, she applies and gets accepted to the Academy. The Academy LOVES enlisted applicants. They bring leadership and experience to the cadet wing that is truly rare and highly desired. Holy cow, are we seeing a theme here? Oh and by the way, the entire time she's enlisted she earns very good money, it counts towards her 20 years active duty if she desires to retire, and she's eligible for the Montgomery GI Bill in case the Academy thing doesn't work out.

So let's say you get in. You made it. Awesome. The fun(?) is about to begin. There's no way around it, the first year sucks. It sucks because they purposely stuff 25 hours of SH*T to do in a 24 hour period. You can't do all of it. You have to prioritize. Grades sucking? Study your ars off and have your roommate shine/iron your uniform. It's this absolute saturation with things to do, and the subsequent bonds you form with your classmates that will last you through the Academy and your career.

Okay so you make it through the first year and you're itching to fly/do something in the air. Guess what, you've got ALL KINDS of things to do that civilian universities simply are not afforded the opportunity to do. I personally joined the skydiving team, "Wings of Blue." Know what I did? I was a 20 year old college student instructing the only military free-fall school in the world certified to jumpmaster and instruct first-time students that had never had a skydive in their life. I was the jumpmaster in the back of a "Twin-Otter" in charge of a plane load full of first time students that had eyes the size of golf balls the first time I flung open that door at 4500' AGL.

In addition to my instructing duty, I was on their competition team and went on to receive 13 National level awards. Oh ya, and I also parachuted into major league baseball games, NASCAR races, parades, football games, air shows........all to the sound of millions of screaming fans. I could never put into words how much leadership, confidence, and lifelong bonds I gained in those three years on the Wings of Blue.

Skydiving not your bag? Man do I have a deal for you. Not only does the Academy own/maintain a huge squadron of gliders, but they charge the cadets with running and instructing this squadron! Again, much like the Wings of Blue, you will be a 20 year old taking another 20 year old up on their initial flight teaching them the basics of flight over the beautiful Colorado Rockies. Their's even a cross-country competition and an exhibition team if you really want to fly around with your hair on fire. Ever pulled 5 G's in a glider? Join the exhibition team and you will.....

Think gliders are for geeks? Try the flying team! They too have an entire squadron of Cessna 150's that they train and compete against other teams in precision nav, landing competitions, etc. The flying team is definitely an awesome deal much like the above programs.

So lets say you still want to fly, and you're getting through the Academy just fine. I have some more great news. As long as you pass the Air Force physical (FAA Class 1 equivalent), you are pretty much GUARANTEED a pilot slot at Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT). The slots are fairly hard to come by outside the Academy, so if you want to fly military jets, the Academy is the way to go.

WOW, you made it through the Academy and you're done. You are off to one of 5 spots for UPT. But first, you'll most likely spend 1-10 months on "casual" status waiting for your UPT class to start. In the mean time, you recover from the Academy, party your butt off, and have a great time with all those hundreds of friends you made in the above paragraphs.

You start UPT and 53 weeks later, you graduate a fully qualified Air Force pilot. During this training, you have accomplished an equivalent of approx. 400 hours flying anything from your simple Cuban-8 in a
T-37 tweet, to two-ship low level tactical navigation at 500' AGL and 360 kts in your screaming T-38C. All the while you are learning lessons in flying your civilian counterparts will rarely/never learn: formation flying, importance of formation integrity, airspeed/altitude/regulation discipline that will make your eyes water, and low-level navigation. You will graduate with an attitude that your hands alone could win the next World War :D

After graduation and assignment to your Major Weapon System (MWS, depends on if you received T-1A's or T-38C's out of T-37 training), you will promptly begin training for that system. 4-8 months later (again depending upon your selected MWS) you will graduate a fully mission qualified and ready for war!

All told, from walking up to the Academy's "Bring Me Men" ramp not even knowing how to spell Lieutenant (at age 19 as I did), to walking out of your MWS training squadron fully mission qualified, it took me just over 5 years.

Wow, so you've been flying the line a bunch lately, and you're maybe looking at getting out in order to live in one place for the time being. You better get your masters before you get out into the civilian world, huh? Got some more good news for you. The Air Force will pay your tuition for your masters. To illustrate, I'm currently being courted by Harvard and Yale to attend their MBA program...most likely on their dime. Again, this is not to brag, only to illustrate that your hard work and accomplishments DO NOT go unnoticed. As an academy grad and Air Force officer, you are a know quantity. They know what you have done, and what you are capable of. You have all kinds of options in case the Majors/FDX/UPS/Frax stint never pans out or the industry goes sour.

So let's add this all up. Some pundits have pegged the above mentioned training with the following dollar figures (I am not embellishing these at all):

Air Force Academy education: $300,000
Fully trained freefall jumpmaster with 1,000 skydives: $50,000
UPT flight training: $10,000,000 (I am not making this up, that is 7 zeroes)
MWS training (airframe specific, but I'll give you a range): $100,000-$5,000,000

$300,000 + $50,000 + $10,000,000 + $2,000,000 = $12,000,000+

Guess how much I monetarily owe the Air Force? After receiving 4 years worth of ivy-league education, top notch flight training, skydiving, friendships and bonds that will last a lifetime, and most importantly, the love of my life (yes I did the Blue for all you Grads reading this ;) ) I owe the following figure:

$0

Yep, I owe nothing. And the 8 years I owed for service? Are you kidding me? I would do that even if I didn't have a commitment. 8 years is a mere blip in today's life expectancy numbers. The variety of stations, airframes, assignments and the excitement I get everytime I go up in the air makes it all worth it. And I get paid very well, to boot.

I hope this helps you, and others in your situation. I would tell you to PM me, but that's beyond me at this point. I'm tired and I need a beer. Oh, and if you haven't noticed, I'm writing this in the middle of the afternoon on a Monday. I took leave today because I felt like it. And so did my wife :p

FREEFALL_Pilot

Let me defend my stance by saying that I went to Riddle. I did a years worth of flight training. I am now a pro-pilot and can't, for the life of me, see the advantage. I say this from a lot of experience. I have flown with Riddle grads and other pilots from a variety of backgrounds and I can say without blinking that the only thing the Riddle pilot's had was an 'I went to Riddle, so, I'm a good pilot' attitude.

Case in point...
certain person whom I fly with from time to time went to Riddle. He does stupid and dangerous things on a regular basis. Each time, I call him out on it, and he has no defense or his defense is really flimsy.

He has been dubbed 'plow boy' b/c he cannot fly one damned leg without using the spoilers. He climbs at high angles of attack through known icing, he descends on the GS prior to course interception...but...never misses the chance to tell you he went to Riddle. YAY!

I have known others...
2 guys, both I know personally, were not prepared to work in aviation b/c Riddle let them leave without a CFI and gave them a degree in Aviation Science ot some waste of time degree.

One works as a ramp agent for USA3000 and has 300 hours and 25 multi, the other hooks trains together for Amtrak. YIPEE!

As for rickair7777, I don't mean to be argumentative, but I got a good education. I went to the University of Delaware. I was taught by some great authors and artists. I had challenging courses too. I came out with a BA in Criminal Justice, and a AA in Philosophy and another in Psychology. If my medical left, I'd have a job tomorrow, and it wouldn't be throwing bags into a A319.
I left there and went to a vocational school for aviation and got a CFI, CFII, MEI and got a job after a year of teaching...been flying ever since. But I could get a job doing a LOT of things, thanks to a diversified education.

If I had it to do all over again,
I would have left high school, went to a vocational training school for a CFI and worked through college. That way, when I left at 23, I'd walk right into the right seat of something high and fast. But, I did it the wrong way and it took til age 26. Go figure.

FREEFALL_Pilot,

I read that great post top to bottom and you are SO very right. Whatever happened to the old time when pilots were ex-military and got the respect they certainly earned through lot of education and experience?
I understand why some people don't want to go the military route (like myself) but all your points are valid. I believe the US military will give a pilot the absolute best start they could ask for and one that money cannot buy.

I qualified via physical and AFOQT test scores, but chickened before board over the whole Iraq thing...sometimes I still think about having gone through to see what might have happened. Then, I think about being home with my wife and son and it makes that guilt vanish.

GREAT POST! We need to see more of you.

Have a Good Day!

Great post above...however I think a few of your numbers are off.

UPT $10 Mil? That would be almost $48K per flight hr. I think $1M is more in line with the real cost. Approx 210-220 hrs for Fighter/Bomber track.

It's a 10 year hitch now for flyers.

What are you flying?:cool:

FuelJetA,

Thanks for the compliment. I've had this reply stewing in my brain since last night when I stumbled on this thread.

//Break//Break//

Slice,

I have seen both numbers published. Although none of them are official, I was on your side when I saw them both. $10Mil seemed a bit steep, but after the quick explanation on where those numbers were drawn upon, it seems possible. Here's what they were considering (many of them are very fuzzy, and can be argued):

Fixed cost (and overhead):
1. Cost of all buildings, dorms, their depreciation, and all maintenance required for them
2. Basewide civilian labor manning the different squadrons (as the Air Force has shifted to more of a civilian manned force)
3. Simulators, their maintenance, Boeing/LSI instructor force
4. Pubs, flight suits, other assorted crap you never use
5. Crew chiefs and other personnel involved in launching all the jets
6. The cost to screen you (IFT program), and medically qualify you
7. Lifesupport equipment (G-Suits, helmets, parachutes, visors, etc.)
8. Required or desired airframe upgrades (T-38C for example)

Variable costs:
1. The atrocious amount of JP8 we gulp in one flight hour
2. Maintenance on all those old planes
3. Tires, oil, hyd. fluid, etcs.
4. Cross country travel expenses
5. Runway, huffer, taxiway maintenance

I'm sure there were more they listed, but this is a quick rundown of what I can remember. Looks to me to be well over $1mil if you include the fuzzy expenses in addition to the obvious ones (JP8, maintenance, etc.).

FREEFALL_Pilot

By the way, I've heard rumors of lots of people only getting the 8 year commitment, as I have. I was *supposed* to have a 10 year, but lo-and-behold, look at my MPF file, and it only has me owing 8 years active. Many of my classmates have the same.... :D

thanks for the replys... can anyone give a link or does anyone have any idea what classes you take for a BA in aeronautical science at UND. ive looked all over there site but i cant find it.

Heres a link to course outlines for the aviation degrees offered
http://www.avit.und.edu/f2_Programs/...uate/index.php

This is the link to the flight ops page. From there, the other links outline the program pretty well.
http://flightops.aero.und.edu/

Hope that helps, if you have any other questions about the program, shoot.

Thanks Freefall
 

I have a son-in-law who enlisted in the USAF several years ago and is currently a C-130 Crew Chief at Hurlbert Field, FL. He wants to fly professionally and I have struggled on the best advice to give him as there are so many options today - many of them bad options! Your thoughtful post has afforded me, and him some options I never knew existed. We all struggle to make our dreams a reality and it is fun and exciting to find good information like this from time to time. Good Luck in your personal goals!!!

That was a hell of a pitch, Freefall, but in my opinion it's not a tough sale. Why would ANYONE pick ERAU over the service academies??? (I mean besides me)
Aside from your high school GPA, your scenario sounds a lot like my uncle's. Maybe you know him...Col. Kevin Davis of the Department of Management...anyway, the air force paid for not only his MBA, but also his PhD, both from Harvard. He told me year after year that "it's not too late" to get in. I had a low high school GPA (3.0 with a few Ds sprinkled in), and enlisted in the army after graduation. After that I went to college, still hearing "it's not too late" every time the subject came up. Well, now it's too late. I'm 27, have a (useless) degree, and sixty thousand dollars of debt. Would've been twice that if not for my years at a community college. Oh, well...I'm looking into a finance/econ degree now. Making 20-25K for the next few years, with little job security and no lateral mobility, is unacceptable.

CALCAP,

By all means, please encourage him to get those letters of recommendation from his supervisors together and get that application package in ASAP! The max age for entrance to the Prep School is 22, and the Academy, 23. My wife is sitting here with me, and she says from experience that enlisted are truly afforded a VERY fair shake at admission, despite their past performance in high school. I wish you all luck...

//Break//Break//

Uncle Bob,

Yes I do in fact know Col. Davis. I was a business major (as well as my wife), and in fact we were just talking about him the other day. We were both saying how incredibly smart he was, and how we were floored at the fact that he could walk into any room with business majors and call you by your first name.....even if he had never met you. It was incredible. Truly a smart and gifted man.

FREEFALL_Pilot

All of the service academies set aside a large number of slots annually for enlisted members, including reserve/guard enlisted. The reserve/guard slots are NEVER all utilized, so if you meet the basic requirements, you should be in..

i guess theres no way around general ed. classes huh? i kinda burned myself out freshman and sophmore year with honors and AP classes so i guess thats whats making me dread taking english and other general classes in college. i do enjoy math and science though (thus aviation) as far as grades go...they arent a problem i have a 4.0+ GPA at a private high school. I guess im going to apply to ERAU, UND, and USAF and go tour them... thanks for all of your replys!

Tour first, and then apply. Don't limit yourself to Riddle and UND just because they say they're the best, or because they have the biggest ad in a magazine. A lot of state schools have strong aviation programs and there are a number of "private" schools that have the same and are still less than ER costs.

5's, 4's, and usually 3's on the AP tests should transfer as credits at UND. However, before classes start at UND you can take a test in various subjects and if you do well enough you can skip some classes. My brother had passed close to a dozen AP tests but USAFA dosen't accept them. They do make take a course placement test during basic and based on that he was able to skip 2 or 3 lower level math and science classes. The AP classes prepare you very well even if you don't get credit for them so don't consider them a complete waste.

Last years USAFA grads couldn't fill all their allotted flights slots to them. If you can make it into the acadamy and don't mind spending 15 years in the service, it's the way to go.

I would SERIOUSLY consider a degree in engineering. You can stick with aviation, but broaden it. Like Aviation Business or Aeronautical Engineering. A degree in Aviation Science is almost as good as a degree in Philosophy, b/c with a degree in Philosophy, at least you can teach!