Logging Time As Safety Pilot
 

I am going to be a Safety Pilot for a Cross-Country flight tomorrow, for a friend of mine, he will be under the hood for the majority of the flight. So my question is how do I log this time?? The regs aren't very clear on this, atleast to me.

Is it PIC or SIC??? It seems like it can be both.
I assume I can log it in Total Time, ASEL, and Day Hours, is that correct??
I don't think I would log it as cross-country time, and I know I don't log the landings.

Any help would be appreciated, don't want to get in trouble over the inproper logging of this time.

I'm working on IFR right now. According to my CFII, the safety pilot can log the entire flight total time (in the category and day/night), and the actual time that your friend is under the hood you can log as PIC. As for cross country, if it is a cross country then I think you get cross country time as well. If this is correct, here's how you could log it:

It's a cross country flight and the round trip is 3 hours. Your friend logged 2.7 hours on the hood. I believe you could log it as:

Total time: 3.0
PIC: 2.7
SEL: 3.0
Day: 3.0
XC: 3.0
PIC XC: 2.7

I think thats they way you'd do it.

Close but not quite. Since this aircraft is single pilot, you can only log that time that the other pilot is actually under the hood (2.7). You can log PIC, day, XC, night, SEL etc., but only the hood value. You cannot log landings or instrument approaches unless you actually fly them. If you go into actual IMC, your buddy is no longer under the hood, he's in actual, so he logs actual and you log nothing. Also, he has to log the name of his safety pilot (you).

SIC time can ONLY be logged in an aircraft that is type rated for an SIC. Sometimes people log SIC when flying 135 ops in a single-pilot plane because the 135 cert requires two pilots, but even that's pretty iffy.

If you log that extra .3 in some but not all categories, it will throw a huge red flag when an airline adds up your log book. They have a real quick & dirty way of verifing your logbook accuracy...
Day + Night = Total Time
SE + ME = Total Time

If this stuff doesn't add up, then they will really start to dig...:eek:

Looking at a FAA interpretation of these...

"...the pilot who is under the hood may log PIC time for that flight time in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft, provided he is rated for that aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second in command (SIC) that time during which he is acting as safety pilot.
The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i)."

ALSO, in another to a person's questions:
"Approval for single pilot operations with use of an operative approved autopilot system under FAR 135.105 gives an operator an additional option in the conduct of operations. It does not mandate that all future flights be conducted in that manner. The operator can elect to fly trips with two pilots, as is otherwise required for flight in IFR conditions under FAR 135.101, using the second in command instead of the autopilot.
Your second question asks if, under the circumstances given above, the SIC can log time as SIC when the designated pilot in command is flying the aircraft. The answer is yes, as long as the certificate holder is using the SIC as a crewmember instead of exercising the autopilot authorization.In other words, the certificate holder elects not to conduct an IFR flight using the single pilot with a functioning autopilot option, but rather conducts an IFR flight using two qualified pilots.The two pilots are then "required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted", FAR 61.51(c)(3), and the assumption is that the second pilot (SIC) will function as a required crewmember, and SIC time may validly be logged. "

That person can even log (not ACT AS) PIC...
"If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 135.109, that person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft....a multiengine airplane flown under Part 135 by two pilots can have both pilots logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated second in command is manipulating the controls.
Note the "appropriately rated" part, and not ACTING as PIC.

Most airlines ask for PIC time in which you "signed for the aircraft" though, not "logged" it

I wonder how the airlines go about verifying a logbook.

I would guess that alot of it is done on faith! But also if you say you have 58 hours of act IFR they give you a sim check and you can't do an ILS to save your life my bet is they won't believe you.

Or they just flip through a few pages and say...okay, okay.. so you're right about at the minimums how are you going to transition to a jet? in a sweet southern drawl. At on regional atleast, cough, 9E. Unless its XJT they run all of the numbers into a spreadsheet.

I am not clear on this yet. I will be acting as a safety pilot tomorrow for one of my friends, and would like to know: do I log the total flight time as my total flight time or do I just log his hood time as my total flight time/PIC time?

Your opinion will be appreciated.

You should only log the time when he's under the hood as safety pilot.

I only skimmed through the posts, but it has always been my understanding that the safety pilot my NOT log any *x-ctry* PIC. Only normal PIC, I guess you could say, and only when the other pilot is under the hood, as others have said.

The only pilot that may log x-ctry PIC is the pilot that is under the hood, due to him supposedly being the sole-manipulator of the controls.

I did not see anyone else mention the x-ctry PIC vs. normal PIC bit in this regard.

Anyone able to clarify?

As safety pilot you log the time they are actually under the hood. Per the FARs (91.109), a safety pilot is a "required" crew-member when under simulated instrument conditions, which gives them the PIC authority... but thats ONLY under the simulated instrument conditions. so you only log the time you're buddy's actually under the hood, nothing more, nothing less.

Because you're considered PIC, you log it as PIC. Because its flight time, you log it as total time, and in all the other respective columns (day, night, cross country, etc)... you just don't count the landings or instrument approaches.

i'll use that example from earlier... 3 hour cross country flight and you're friends was under the hood for 2.7 hours. you would log(as safety pilot):

total time: 2.7
PIC: 2.7
day SEL: 2.7
cross country: 2.7
PIC cross country: 2.7
landings: 0
approaches: 0

Thanks guys.

Now, can I act as the safety pilot of a pilot who is not instrument rated yet? A friend of mine is asking to be his safety pilot, but he is a private pilot and currently working on his instrument rating. He wants to do some hood work.

If you are rated for the aircraft, you can act as a safety pilot. It really doesn't matter much about the other guy. Some people use safety pilots to augment their instrument training, others to keep current or practice.

Just don't teach him anything and you'll be fine

Sounds good. Thank you.

Can anyone clarify??

I have my instrument checkride in a week. My CFII said that I can't count my 7 hours I logged as x-country PIC when I was a safety pilot and that I will need to fly these hours before the check ride. Please let me know!!!

My question from the FARs: Do you have to do the landing yourself? As safety pilot you don't normally land the plane....



(3) Cross-country time means --

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3) (ii), (iii), (iv), and (v) of this section, time acquired during a flight --

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate, a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101(c), time acquired during a flight --

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under §61.101(c), time acquired during a flight --

EngineerPilot, your CFII has no idea what he is talking about. At the school where I taught the only safety pilot PIC time our students got were Night X-C. They would get the plane at 8pm and bring it back at 6am. Out of the HUNDREDS of students we had none of them got in trouble for that. Plus, think of it from the FAA standpoint. Why would they care if it was local 8 hours or if you went 50 miles away? They don't care, so niether should you.

As far as the pilot under the hood being the only sole manipulator of he controls goes, what good is that if you have no idea where you are going. A little kid can fly a heading and altitude, it is the safety pilot that I think takes talent. This is assuming you are doing it right. PM me if you have any more questions or if I need to clarify. Just be honest with the examiner too, heck, why not call him and ask this question. He would be the one to veto it anyways so go straight to the source.

I agree, there is no limitation on a safety pilot logging conditions of flight such as night and XC. The airplane has to travel a certain distance and land at two points (depending on what you need the XC time for), but it does not matter who lands it.

EDIT: This post was correct in 2008 when I wrote it, but the FAA interpretation in 2009 changed that. You should be able to log night but no longer XC. Of course don't log IMC as SP.

You just cant log dual given and recived. No instrument rating required if it is a vfr flight under the hood.

Thanks for the replies. This is what my CFII told me when he went over my logbook yesterday...

My CFII assumed from reading the FAR's x-country definition that logging cross country meant YOU had to "land at an airport of 50 NM away" and if there was no landing logged (i.e. your buddy did the landing) then NONE of the flight could be logged as x-country. So if I was safety pilot for the entirity of the 70 NM leg back home this would only be counted as PIC time and NOT x-country (b/c no landing). Or if I flew part of the leg and didn't land then this would NOT count as x-country (b/c no landing).

Furthermore my CFII assumed if you were safety pilot then you weren't using "dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point" as stated in the x-country definition then you couldn't log x-country. So say for a 4.2 hour flight in the Comments section of my log book I state that I was safety pilot for 2.2 hours and under the hood for 1.8 hours AND I landed the plane that I could only log 2.0 (4.2 -2.2) hours of x-country because this was when I was using navigation systems to the landing point.

From my understanding of your replies is that I can log x-country PIC regardless.

BTW, I am trying to get a hold of the examiner...

I wouldn't worry about...

if you call the examiner and ask him he might think up a way where it couldn't be PIC... however I've done what you did (logging time) and several other people I know have once upon a time and nobody cared...

not to be sneaky... but I would just put PIC down... and not mention anything about being a safety pilot in the comment section... I've really only mentioned the safety pilot's name, etc if I was under the hood, not visa versa.

If you touched the controls on the ground at the destination airport... you could probably safely say that it was XC time in your situation.

If you are worried about logging a landing on cross-country ask for a touch and go followed by a full stop. That way you each get a landing.

Joe

No, this is incorrect... when I'm acting as a CFI, I still log all X/C flights as X/C PIC even though I often never touch the controls, much less do a landing. If you can legally log the PIC time, then any conditions of flight (Night, X/C, Instrument, etc) may be logged as well.

I got a hold of the examiner and he said while he doesn't like the rule it is still legal. So that is the bottom line. And yes, all conditions of flight including X/C applies to it. Now to focus for Saturday's check ride. Thanks again everyone for clearing it up for me :)

This logic doesn't hold because that means as a CFI you wouldn't be able to log X-country time because you can't log your student's landings.

This was specifically addressed by the FAA in 2009, and they said you can NOT log cross country time as a safety pilot.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

This post was correct in 2008 when I wrote it, but the FAA interpretation referenced above changed that.

You should be able to log night but no longer XC. Of course don't log IMC as SP.

Thanks for posting that. Even though this thread is old, it is still a front page search result on Google when searched on the subject (that is how I found it) so it is important to keep it updated.

Question: if you have your CFII then I assume you can count all the time along with the cross country time if you mark it as duel given in the other pilots logbook?

This does not hold water because as a safety pilot, you do not log PIC during the landing phase of flight, since the other person is not wearing the hood during landing.

Safety pilots cannot log landings, and do not log XC. You are only logging PIC during the time the other person is under the hood if you are ACTING as PIC for the flight. If the other person is acting as PIC and is wearing a hood, you log SIC (yes, even if it's a Warrior or Skyhawk) -- this is a serious issue because if there is an accident, the FAA will ask who the PIC is and you don't want to be pointing at each other. You can only have one designated ACTING pilot in command for a given flight. It's either the safety pilot or the pilot flying. If it's the pilot flying, what justification does the safety pilot have for logging PIC if they aren't touching the controls?

FloridaCFII was actually correct...he made the post in 2008, and everybody did log XC as SP back then. The FAA issued an interpretation in 2009 which indicated that you can't log XC if you didn't make the TO & LDG.

Yup...my bad, didn't look at the date of the post i quoted.

That's not what the legal opinion states. It references a flight, a theoretical posited by the submitter, in which the safety pilot has acted as safety pilot for only a portion of the flight. A flight with multiple legs in which the safety pilot acts in that capacity for the duration of the legs, including approaches and landings (it's done; zero zero simulated takeoffs and landings with safety pilot or instructor), the legal interpretation does not prohibit logging of cross country for a safety pilot.

The rationale in the interpretation isn't about making a takeoff or landing, it's about acting as a required crew member for the duration of a flight. On a multiple-leg flight with each leg more than 50 nm from the point of origin, cross country time may be loggable for each segment. If the safety pilot is a required crew member for one or two segments, but not all, those segments for which the safety pilot remains a required crew member for the entire segment (not just a part) may be logged as cross country. Nothing in the legal interpretation prohibits this, but in fact, the interpretation supports it.

Note the relevant language: "However, Pilot B may not log any cross-country flight time because that pilot was a required flight crewmember for only a portion of the flight."

I know that, and that's a convoluted way of saying what I said in the first place. The net effect for most folks is that you cannot log XC on a flight where you served as SP pilot because you were not a required crewmember for the duration of the flight. Most of GA pilots can't do zero/zero LDGs and while zero/zero takeoffs may be technically legal in GA, it's not a very good idea at all.

The point isn't whether it's a good idea or not, but that the legal interpretation needs to be referenced correctly. It does not state that a safety pilot must perform a takeoff or landing to qualify for cross country, but that the safety pilot must act as a required crew member for the duration of the flight.

It's easy to read into the opinion what isn't there, and to use that to cloud the meaning and language of the interpretation. It simply states that for the purposes of cross country, the safety pilot must be a required crew member for the duration of the flight, and not just part of it.

It's also well to remember that the scope of the petitioners question is limited in the application of cross country time; cross country is defined differently for various applications. At its most basic, a cross country must include a landing at a point other than the point of departure, with no specific distance. A cross country for ATP experience requirements need not having a landing at a point other than the point of departure; just reach a point more than 50 nm from departure. For private, commercial, and instrument, it's a landing 50 miles from the point of departure, and a student pilot requires authorization to go on a cross country of 25 miles.

The application of the interpretation to the logging of cross country and SIC time will vary with the application of the regulation to the specific use of the cross country experience; a SIC relevant to ATP-cross country will be different than an SIC for a private-pilot cross country for the purposes of meeting certification requirements.

The devil really is in the details.