Failed Addon Checkride, Help!
08-08-2008, 03:50 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: BE50C (A), BE95 (A), C172S (B)
Posts: 349
Originally Posted by ryan1234
chandelles (to turn around a "candle") are a performance maneuver and should be entered at cruise airspeed and then add full power for max performance. If you think of the original reason behind it... WWI French pilots drop bombs and do a climbing 180 to avoid ground fire (it was also used as a lag pursuit in air to air combat)...most would probably use full power (i.e. full energy) to gain the most altitude while using precise control of airspeed to control radius of the turn. MCA will be a slightly lower airspeed with full power (max performance). If you think of practical application (i.e. turning about in a valley, etc) it may make it easier. As a commercial pilot, generally it's easier to think in terms of energy when doing each maneuver, including soft field landings (i.e. using the ground effect and MDR to land while), short fields.. just control airspeed with AOA and descent with power, combo brings angle to the ground.
When I worked in training, if any pilot didn't meet standard, the first place they went to was not the pilot but the instructor. The instructor was debriefed and in some cases, it was the instructor who got an additional ride.
Second, the examiner may have been a dorko also so talking to him may be a waste of time. NO ONE should berate or talk down to someone taking a checkride. No one goes for a checkride expecting to fail and his attitude is also suspect. This happens.
Still, talk to the examiner and ask questions. You should have gotten a full and thorough explanation on every maneuver that didn't meet standard.
Second, the examiner may have been a dorko also so talking to him may be a waste of time. NO ONE should berate or talk down to someone taking a checkride. No one goes for a checkride expecting to fail and his attitude is also suspect. This happens.
Still, talk to the examiner and ask questions. You should have gotten a full and thorough explanation on every maneuver that didn't meet standard.
)
I was just trying to help the student ask questions of the instructor and examiner. From the post, it sounds like there wasn't much of a debrief, which you as an instructor knows is where much of the real learning takes place.
08-08-2008, 04:24 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by usmc-sgt
So you failed a checkride..big deal old news.
What can you do about it? Nothing.
What can you do about the re-check, now we are in business.
Go out and have a beer and have a good time, hit the PTS and fly hard and do your very best on the next checkride to knock it out of the park (which statistics show the re-checks have a VERY high success rate.)
Failing a checkride is a bummer but no sense hanging on the moment. Some advice I can give for doing many checkrides with different DPES who all have their own odd quirks is: When they ask you why you did _____ a certain way tell them its how you were taught and ask them how they would do it. They will typically gladly show you and then you tell them how great it was and how you will adopt that as your new savior in all that is holy in the flying world. Examiners dont want to be argued with or have even the slightest hint of attitude. Say you will change everything you know and do and adopt their techniques because the clouds have opened up and the sun hath shown down from the heavens and the good lord above showed you the way to chandelle righteousness.
Sorry about the pink slip...what kind of beer are you having tonight?
What can you do about it? Nothing.
What can you do about the re-check, now we are in business.
Go out and have a beer and have a good time, hit the PTS and fly hard and do your very best on the next checkride to knock it out of the park (which statistics show the re-checks have a VERY high success rate.)
Failing a checkride is a bummer but no sense hanging on the moment. Some advice I can give for doing many checkrides with different DPES who all have their own odd quirks is: When they ask you why you did _____ a certain way tell them its how you were taught and ask them how they would do it. They will typically gladly show you and then you tell them how great it was and how you will adopt that as your new savior in all that is holy in the flying world. Examiners dont want to be argued with or have even the slightest hint of attitude. Say you will change everything you know and do and adopt their techniques because the clouds have opened up and the sun hath shown down from the heavens and the good lord above showed you the way to chandelle righteousness.
Sorry about the pink slip...what kind of beer are you having tonight?
08-10-2008, 10:48 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: JS32 FO
Posts: 848
Yeah, it sounds like your instructor did you wrong by not pulling out the books and brushing up on his technique. However...
You are a Commercial pilot already. You do need to take some control of your training. When an instructor teaches, ask them for a reference or picture, something you can refer back to later to study on your own.
I don't think it's right to belittle a student on a checkride, but examiners are usually a little crusty. They may gripe and moan and get after you in the plane the entire flight and then say you did fine on the ground. That comes with the territory so be warned. Not saying it's right, but it does happen. I also think the examiner was expecting more from you. He knew you had already earned a Commercial and were just adding on the SE. So fair or not, he expected you to demonstrate the appropriate level of knowledge and became frustrated when that didn't happen. Like others have said, speak up, ask lots of questions, get reference material, and prep on your own in addition to what the instructor gives you. At this point you know how to do that. You will be fine, now you know what's coming. Better to be overprepared than under.
You are a Commercial pilot already. You do need to take some control of your training. When an instructor teaches, ask them for a reference or picture, something you can refer back to later to study on your own.
I don't think it's right to belittle a student on a checkride, but examiners are usually a little crusty. They may gripe and moan and get after you in the plane the entire flight and then say you did fine on the ground. That comes with the territory so be warned. Not saying it's right, but it does happen. I also think the examiner was expecting more from you. He knew you had already earned a Commercial and were just adding on the SE. So fair or not, he expected you to demonstrate the appropriate level of knowledge and became frustrated when that didn't happen. Like others have said, speak up, ask lots of questions, get reference material, and prep on your own in addition to what the instructor gives you. At this point you know how to do that. You will be fine, now you know what's coming. Better to be overprepared than under.
08-22-2008, 10:49 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 195
Quote: very well known flight university.
I assume this is a Part 141 school. You need to talk to the Chief Flight Instructor about this. At 141 schools everything you learn should be standardized. I think they owe it to you to retrain you in the maneuvers at their own expense and request a change of instructor as he/she sounds incompetent.
I assume this is a Part 141 school. You need to talk to the Chief Flight Instructor about this. At 141 schools everything you learn should be standardized. I think they owe it to you to retrain you in the maneuvers at their own expense and request a change of instructor as he/she sounds incompetent.
08-22-2008, 12:20 PM
#19
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Joined APC: May 2007
Position: JS32 FO
Posts: 848
That sounds well and good, but I have an issue with it. At many 141 schools, there is no provision for recurrent and refresher maneuvers practice other than the 12 month requirement. We used to have guys who got their CFI but had no commercial students for 3-6 months. It happened to me. How can you demo maneuvers you haven't practiced in a complex airplane when you fly every day to make ends meet. The school is responsible, but the instructor may have been caught in a system that kept him from being fresh.
08-22-2008, 01:52 PM
#20
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
Originally Posted by the King
That sounds well and good, but I have an issue with it. At many 141 schools, there is no provision for recurrent and refresher maneuvers practice other than the 12 month requirement. We used to have guys who got their CFI but had no commercial students for 3-6 months. It happened to me. How can you demo maneuvers you haven't practiced in a complex airplane when you fly every day to make ends meet. The school is responsible, but the instructor may have been caught in a system that kept him from being fresh.
Last edited by Cubdriver; 08-22-2008 at 02:01 PM.
