The original question is a good one. Instrument training (either with a CFII or SP) is loggable as PIC in FAR terms if you are rated at least as a PPL in that aircraft. With a CFII, it is also dual.

This is true under the hood in VMC, or in IMC with an instructor. This is a little bit counter-intuitive since you are not rated for the IMC flight condition, but that's how it is generally done.


Actually there are two phases of your career as far as PIC goes, and the real-world definition of PIC is different between the two.

At the entry-level, including regionals, they will generally accept any FAR-legal PIC towards their required totals.

When you apply to majors, they generally want to break out dual received, dual given, safety pilot, etc. These times will still be counted, but seperately. Probably safe to safe the majors will not care about exactly how you logged PIC while a PPL, as long as it was not fruadulent. Ultimately, for your PIC total they are interested in time in which YOU signed for the airplane and flew it...this is the gold standard.

Folks who come up with schemes to log PIC when they were not the CA usually find out that it doesn't work...interviewers can sniff that out. Kind of like the FAR provision to apply some SIC while "fulfilling the duties of PIC" to the PIC mins for an ATP...that time would still be SIC, not PIC. It can be used towards an ATP, but not for anything else.

I was also talking to a DPE (ex-FAA) the other day who said something I had never heard before... I wanna see who all agrees with this.

"There is a difference between 'logging' PIC and 'acting' as PIC... you may LOG any time as PIC as long as you're rated in the category and class (and type if applicable) and you're the sole manipulator of the controls. HOWEVER, you may not ACT as PIC unless you fulfill the FAR requirements to do so."

Examples that came to my mind would be flying a complex airplane before you had your complex endorsement. You're rated in the airplane so you may log PIC, however, you need an instructor there to act as PIC.

Here's the more shady one... what about if you're flying right seat with someone 135? You don't have 135 minimums, but you're rated in the airplane in which you're flying. Because you're the sole manipulator of the controls, can you log PIC since the capt (not touching the controls) is acting as PIC?

Haha, just some food for thought.

I believe what you quoted the DPE saying is spot on. Huge difference between acting and logging in a few specific areas.

In your 135 example, though, you wouldn't be allowed to be sole manipulator because it's a 135 flight. I've heard of guys logging the "dead legs" of 135, if there is no freight and you are dispatched under 91.

No, you do not have privileges for that aircraft. You are not able to fly that without an instructor's endorsement.

People also need to get away from this "sole manipulator of the controls" BS. The next parts are very important. "of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges"

it is important to read the whole reg

SR would be proud.

Doneski.

we're not talking about solo... we're talking logging it as PIC WHILE you're receiving your training/endorsement....

and personally, I didn't log PIC time in complex until I got my endorsement.

right, you cannot log PIC while with an instructor while working on a complex.

No, you cannot log it until you get the endorsement.

But a complex endorsement can be accomplished in one flight...typically we were training a commercial applicant, so his first complex flight would not be PIC but he would get his endorsement after that flight. His subsequent commercial complex training would all be PIC. This was easy because we knew he would get additional supervised complex flying.

I'm not sure why there is all this interest in logging grey area piston-PIC. Maybe it's related to the low-time pilot phenomenon?

Unless you're certain it's PIC, best not to log it. What you REALLY need is turbine, not piston, PIC anyway.

i have complex high hp endorsement. since im the one that asked the original question, is that a yes or a no on the pic instrument training?(technically)

hmm. Where I went to school, they told me to log PIC in a complex before the endorsement. I guess I should have read the regs before I followed their way of logging.I had to take three different in school phase checks before they would give it to me because my instructor said I was good to go but the director said the time was too low. Just flippin great.