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Old 09-25-2008, 06:56 PM   #1  
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Default pic or dual

can i log pic while i get my instrument training from my instructor? or is that considered dual?
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Old 09-25-2008, 07:25 PM   #2  
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yes...instrument time is logged both as dual and PIC as long as you have a PPL...most of the time
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:47 AM   #3  
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There have been several topics on this issue already. IIRC, if you're under the hood in VMC then technically you may log the time as PIC since you are "sole manipulator or the controls". However, many airlines will not accept that time since as PIC since you're not the ultimate authority for the operation and safety of the flight...the instructor is (remember, you're under the hood). I seem to remember that you cannot log time in actual IMC as PIC since you are not instrument rated yet. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:00 AM   #4  
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Originally Posted by aviator77 View Post
IIRC, if you're under the hood in VMC then technically you may log the time as PIC since you are "sole manipulator or the controls". However, many airlines will not accept that time since as PIC since you're not the ultimate authority for the operation and safety of the flight...the instructor is (remember, you're under the hood).
You can log PIC here, but I've never heard about airlines not accepting it. To me that sounds like saying that when you're flying with a safety pilot, the safety pilot's time is the only time that matters? I donno...

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I seem to remember that you cannot log time in actual IMC as PIC since you are not instrument rated yet. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
... this is true.
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:18 AM   #5  
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You can log PIC here, but I've never heard about airlines not accepting it. To me that sounds like saying that when you're flying with a safety pilot, the safety pilot's time is the only time that matters? I donno...
From SWA's website...

Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" for the purposes of application for employment as the Pilot ultimately responsible for the operation and Safety of the aircraft during flight. The Pilot in Command should also be the Pilot who signed for the aircraft and who is the ultimate authority for the operation of that flight.

And Fedex...

Note: PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls.

I'm not sure about others but it's something to keep in mind. Honestly, the amount of PIC you'll log during training is minimal. Just to be safe, I never logged any of my dual as PIC. It's better to be conservative I guess.

Last edited by Rawhide16; 09-26-2008 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:27 AM   #6  
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so you/they're pretty much saying that any time under the hood should not be logged as PIC? (assuming you're rated to fly that specific flight/aircraft in the first place)
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Old 09-26-2008, 09:01 AM   #7  
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so you/they're pretty much saying that any time under the hood should not be logged as PIC? (assuming you're rated to fly that specific flight/aircraft in the first place)
The FAR's say you can log it. Some airlines however, (SWA and Fedex at least) seem to think that PIC should be time that you are actually the Aircraft Commander. That's their prerogative. I'm sure there are airlines out there that don't care as long as you're abiding by the FAR's. If you're under the hood it's kind of difficult to be the "ultimate authority" with regards to the safety of flight. You can't fly by yourself with a hood on can you? Because you need someone else there to make sure you don't have a midair or CFIT.

I'm not saying I agree necessarily, but it's something to think about depending on your career goals. If you have no intention of flying for the airlines then log all of your "sole manipulator of the controls" time as PIC. There's nothing wrong with that.
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Old 09-26-2008, 09:02 AM   #8  
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Originally Posted by mcartier713 View Post
so you/they're pretty much saying that any time under the hood should not be logged as PIC? (assuming you're rated to fly that specific flight/aircraft in the first place)
Are you instrument rated flying in IMC on an IFR flight plan? If no, how can you be under the hood in VMC and fulfill PIC responsibilities like see and avoid other aircraft, terrain, and clouds?
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Old 09-26-2008, 10:21 AM   #9  
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I think by the time you are looking at SWA or Fedex, you'll have well more than enough intervening experience to not have to worry about this discussion. Make sense? I mean, we are talking about how to log a few hours way early on in a pilot career. You think at the SWA interview, the interviewer is going to go back to your IFR training and asked if you signed for the aircraft? And if he did, you'd subtract 10 hours off of your PIC column to make him happy and still have 4990 hours of PIC time.

A few other thoughts.

You can't log safety pilot time in IMC. A safety pilot isn't required by FAR's in those conditions.

You can log time under the hood working on your IFR as PIC as sole manipulator. That assumes you are rated in the airplane (PPL single).

In the above example, you could log both PIC and dual (it's called "training time" now by the FAA) but I've always thought that looked a little weird. When I started flying, it always made sense that PIC plus dual should equal total time. I still kinda like that though you can argue that the FAA doesn't care and the regs support logging both PIC and dual at the same time.

In the end, you can always log sole manipulator time as PIC if you're rated in the airplane. The conditions of flight don't matter. And now we are getting into the argument between being able to ACT as PIC, and simply logging PIC time.

Rickair, HELP, where are you?
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Old 09-27-2008, 06:35 PM   #10  
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wow that confused me. i asked my flight instructor today and he couldnt give me a straight answer either =/
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