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Old 09-23-2008, 09:02 PM   #1  
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Default Logging PIC vs SIC

Under Part 135 in a Hawker 800, can both CA and FO log PIC if they both have a PIC type rating? Right now I fly Part 121 and I asked a check airman if he logs PIC when doing line checks on CAs and he seemed to think it's okay for him and the CA to both log PIC.
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Old 09-24-2008, 08:56 AM   #2  
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An FO/copilot who is serving as SIC should not log PIC, even though he has a PIC type. He is not the PIC. An potential employer would consider that to be falsification.

A check airman sitting in the right seat while doing a check on the PIC could log PIC, as could the left-seater. A check airman can also log it in the jumpseat.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:00 PM   #3  
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Remember, the PIC rating means that you are QUALIFIED to be PIC, it doesn't mean you ARE in command.
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Old 09-28-2008, 03:17 AM   #4  
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Remember, the PIC rating means that you are QUALIFIED to be PIC, it doesn't mean you ARE in command.
To the airlines it means you ARE in command. If you're not the guy who signs the release or if **** goes wrong, the first guy the boss wants to talk to, don't log PIC. It's really that simple. The FAA definition means dick when it comes to getting hired.
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Old 09-28-2008, 05:30 AM   #5  
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This question comes up every now and than and there are so many interpretations it makes the head spin. I've always understood the logging as there is only one PIC and one SIC (91.513) for any given flight that requires such....end of story. You cannot have more than one of either on any given "leg". When the crap hits the fan "somebody" has to be responsible. If you both log PIC, who is responsible? As far as the check airman goes, unless there's an agreement prior to the flight, usually the check airman is PIC. The PF is receiving the ride to get current (though line checks can be a different ballgame). I always ask myself, if we go down in flames of glory (God forbid), who will be responsible according to the authorities?

That's my story and I'm sticking with it. :-) Now I have a headache.
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Old 09-28-2008, 03:34 PM   #6  
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To the airlines it means you ARE in command. If you're not the guy who signs the release or if **** goes wrong, the first guy the boss wants to talk to, don't log PIC. It's really that simple. The FAA definition means dick when it comes to getting hired.
I don't get it Slice, how is it that the airline considers you to be in command just because you have the PIC rating?
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Old 10-05-2008, 09:35 PM   #7  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
An FO/copilot who is serving as SIC should not log PIC, even though he has a PIC type. He is not the PIC. An potential employer would consider that to be falsification.

A check airman sitting in the right seat while doing a check on the PIC could log PIC, as could the left-seater. A check airman can also log it in the jumpseat.
I disagree. The PIC is the one signing the release (if used) or logbook, or both (if a release is used). If the person in the left seat is current and qualified then there is no reason for the Check Airman to be the PIC, hence he/she is assigned the trip as SIC. If the person in the left seat is not qualified, let's say still in IOE or just out of currency of some sort then the Check Airman is the PIC from the right seat while the applicant in the left seat is "acting" as the PIC but listed as SIC on the release.
121.385 Composition of flight crew.

(c) The minimum pilot crew is two pilots and the certificate holder shall designate one pilot as pilot in command and the other second in command.

As far as a Check Airman logging PIC from an observers seat I disagree. The only FAR that may allow a Check Airman to "log" PIC is IAW FAR 121.545 if he/she is actually manipulating the flight controls, but even that's a grey area as this is 121, not 91: In 121 the "sole manipulator rule" of the flight controls can not be used towards a certificate or a rating (PIC can always log PIC, the SIC can always log SIC, regardless of who's the PF or PM/PNF) Can it be logged? Sure, a logbook is a personal document and nothing is illegal to log. What is not legal is to use flight time contrary to the FAR's for currency or using/attempting to use it towards a certificate or a rating.
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Old 10-05-2008, 10:31 PM   #8  
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I don't get it Slice, how is it that the airline considers you to be in command just because you have the PIC rating?
It doesn't...you're misinterpreting my post. I have a left seat type in the 747, 757, and 767 from UPS. I'm not the Captain, the pilot who by name is required to sign the release, I never log PIC.
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:38 AM   #9  
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I disagree. The PIC is the one signing the release (if used) or logbook, or both (if a release is used). If the person in the left seat is current and qualified then there is no reason for the Check Airman to be the PIC, hence he/she is assigned the trip as SIC. If the person in the left seat is not qualified, let's say still in IOE or just out of currency of some sort then the Check Airman is the PIC from the right seat while the applicant in the left seat is "acting" as the PIC but listed as SIC on the release.
121.385 Composition of flight crew.

(c) The minimum pilot crew is two pilots and the certificate holder shall designate one pilot as pilot in command and the other second in command.

As far as a Check Airman logging PIC from an observers seat I disagree. The only FAR that may allow a Check Airman to "log" PIC is IAW FAR 121.545 if he/she is actually manipulating the flight controls, but even that's a grey area as this is 121, not 91: In 121 the "sole manipulator rule" of the flight controls can not be used towards a certificate or a rating (PIC can always log PIC, the SIC can always log SIC, regardless of who's the PF or PM/PNF) Can it be logged? Sure, a logbook is a personal document and nothing is illegal to log. What is not legal is to use flight time contrary to the FAR's for currency or using/attempting to use it towards a certificate or a rating.

I am very conservative about logging my time, and would pretty much only log it if the "PIC" was actually still in training. But others folks take a different approach, and justify it by saying that a company check airman can, at any time and from any seat, overide the PIC's command authority if necessary (a fed cannot do this...he can only make suggestions and/or violate you afterwards).
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:47 AM   #10  
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I am very conservative about logging my time, and would pretty much only log it if the "PIC" was actually still in training. But others folks take a different approach, and justify it by saying that a company check airman can, at any time and from any seat, overide the PIC's command authority if necessary (a fed cannot do this...he can only make suggestions and/or violate you afterwards).
I am with you there. A Check Airman can take over the controls when sitting on the observer seat. Can it be legally defined as PIC time? Could be but I have never done it and don't know how to justify it.
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