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Logging Time

Old 09-13-2008, 10:13 PM
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Hello,

I have a bunch of questions about logging time ... so here we go:

1) I'm an IFR student, and the new school I transfered to has an Elite RC-1 FTD. The CFI logged my flight today the exact way you will log a regular flight (including approaches, landings, and ASEL and TOTAL TIME) the only difference is that he also put Sim Time. The sim is brand new ... and they didn't have that much experience with it ... so my question is the following:

How should I log sim time?

2) He mentioned that is possible for me to do cross countries in the sim (to satisfy the 50h requirement) ... is that possible?

3) Can you log both dual and PIC at the same time? My previous flight instructor didn't do that ... he only logged dual time not PIC time for our IFR lessons.

4) I can do 20 hours worth of training for my IFR in the sim ... 20 hours of doing what? What are the limitations?
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Old 09-14-2008, 12:35 AM
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1) FTD time should only be logged as simulator and dual received, plus the approaches. No total time, no ASEL, no landings, no simulated (hood) instrument. Fix it now, save yourself from headache later.

2) I'm pretty sure FTD time doesn't count as cross country.

3) Yes you can have both so long as you are the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft for which you are rated.

4) Check the reg's but it should say something like: 20 hours in a simulator may be used to satisfy the requirements of 61.XX(y) (aeronautical experience). Find the reg, and it shall spell out what you can work on. It should include all the standard instrument stuff: IR maneuvers, approaches, holds, full/partial panel stuff, etc.

Best of luck on the instrument rating.
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Old 09-14-2008, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by CRMcaptain View Post
Hello,

I have a bunch of questions about logging time ... so here we go:

1) I'm an IFR student, and the new school I transfered to has an Elite RC-1 FTD. The CFI logged my flight today the exact way you will log a regular flight (including approaches, landings, and ASEL and TOTAL TIME) the only difference is that he also put Sim Time. The sim is brand new ... and they didn't have that much experience with it ... so my question is the following:

How should I log sim time?

2) He mentioned that is possible for me to do cross countries in the sim (to satisfy the 50h requirement) ... is that possible?

3) Can you log both dual and PIC at the same time? My previous flight instructor didn't do that ... he only logged dual time not PIC time for our IFR lessons.

4) I can do 20 hours worth of training for my IFR in the sim ... 20 hours of doing what? What are the limitations?
As echoed before, you cannot log sim time towards any "flight time" that means total, etc. Many instructors get confused by this as sim time counts as flight time for the purpose of a rating but you cannot count is as flight time in your log book. Unless you leave the ground, its not flight.

I would also be wary about adding dual and PIC. Here's the reason: right now you may have low flight time and every hour counts. Believe me I remember that time. Someday however, you will get to an interview. I'm not sure about the regional but the major interview when it comes they will be exact on your flight time. They will do a simple addition of multi- and single and see if it equals TT. They will also add up PIC, SIC and Dual. If these numbers don't add up you will have to explain in the interview. They will argue back depending on the interviewer and I would hate to see you not get a major job over an accounting error in your logbook. 20,50, even 100 hours may seem like a lot now but someday it won't. The only thing you will care about is accuracy in front of an interview panel.

You can make any logbook correction by making a new entry and subtracting the time in the appropriate column. Then in the remarks you can add "Subtracted xx PIC hours to account for dual given". Sign your name and the FAA, Interviewers and everyone will be happy.

I used to give interviews so this is the most correct way to do it. Good luck.
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Old 09-14-2008, 08:38 AM
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Reference FAR 61.65 (d) and (e).

FAR 141.4(b) talks about how much sim time you can use to substitute for required instrument instruction.

Far141.4(c) talks about airplane instruction, including airplane cross country instruction.

Joe
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Old 09-14-2008, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by zildjian_zach View Post
1) FTD time should only be logged as simulator and dual received, plus the approaches. No total time, no ASEL, no landings, no simulated (hood) instrument. Fix it now, save yourself from headache later.

2) I'm pretty sure FTD time doesn't count as cross country.
I would only log FTD as sim, never dual. Dual is instruction recieved in an airplane. Sim time is NEVER valid without an instructor, so it is assumed by definition that sim time is also dual.

FTD time could never be logged as actual XC. What get's confusing is that regs in some cases say that you can SUBSTITUTE a type of training for a experience requirement...in this case you can substitute sim for the XC flight time. This does NOT mean that the sim BECOMES XC, it is still just sim time flown in a XC profile. Do not log it as XC.

If you miss-log some of this stuff, it will make your life hard when you have to explain it at an interview...instead of selling yourself to the best of your ability, you will be sitting in a corner under a cloud of suspicion, frantically punching a calculator to arrive at some totals which make sense to the interviewer.
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Old 09-14-2008, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
I would only log FTD as sim, never dual. Dual is instruction recieved in an airplane. Sim time is NEVER valid without an instructor, so it is assumed by definition that sim time is also dual.

FTD time could never be logged as actual XC. What get's confusing is that regs in some cases say that you can SUBSTITUTE a type of training for a experience requirement...in this case you can substitute sim for the XC flight time. This does NOT mean that the sim BECOMES XC, it is still just sim time flown in a XC profile. Do not log it as XC.

If you miss-log some of this stuff, it will make your life hard when you have to explain it at an interview...instead of selling yourself to the best of your ability, you will be sitting in a corner under a cloud of suspicion, frantically punching a calculator to arrive at some totals which make sense to the interviewer.
Amen brother. Not to mention that when you go on an FAA checkride you and your instructor's integrity would be in question by the examiner and would also probably be sent back home and told not to come back until you meet the experience requirements.

FTD does not count toward any FLIGHT time.
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Old 09-14-2008, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by DAL4EVER View Post
They will also add up PIC, SIC and Dual. If these numbers don't add up you will have to explain in the interview.
What are they looking for PIC+SIC+Dual to add up to? It seems like that would normally be way more than total time, as students should be logging PIC and Dual for most instruction they receive.
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Old 09-14-2008, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by floridaCFII View Post
What are they looking for PIC+SIC+Dual to add up to? It seems like that would normally be way more than total time, as students should be logging PIC and Dual for most instruction they receive.
The simplest reality check an interviewer will perform is SE + ME = TT. If that equation does not hold up, things are going to go downhill.

The usual deal with airlines is they want a breakdown of:

- PIC, but excluding dual received OR given. This would be your actual flying time with no instruction occuring.

- SIC

- Dual Given

- Dual Received

There's no particular way they should add up, but a very high amount of dual received might not be good...this could indicate either a very slow learner (who will not complete 121 training) or some very "creative" time building.

Recall that JFK junior had a very large amount of instruction towards his IR, but no rating to show for it...
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Old 09-14-2008, 02:22 PM
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Thanks rickair... that makes a lot more sense. My employer has our students log Sim/FTD and Dual for instruction that occurs in the sim, and then we subtract that Dual back out when they do their 8710s. It seems like it's adding a needless extra step to me, but what can I say... they like paperwork here.

Since I trained at the same place I work, my FTD time is logged this way as well. I guess if asked in an interview, I'll just explain the logging method.
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Old 09-14-2008, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by floridaCFII View Post
Thanks rickair... that makes a lot more sense. My employer has our students log Sim/FTD and Dual for instruction that occurs in the sim, and then we subtract that Dual back out when they do their 8710s. It seems like it's adding a needless extra step to me, but what can I say... they like paperwork here.

Since I trained at the same place I work, my FTD time is logged this way as well. I guess if asked in an interview, I'll just explain the logging method.

What I would do, after you finish filling up your current page in your logbook, is subtract the total "dual" received in FTDs from your current total dual received. That should give you your total dual-airplane time. Then adjust your dual column accordingly in the totals at the bottom of the page to reflect your total dual-airplane time. Do the same for total time and cross-country time if you logged it in those columns as well. Also, put a note in the bottom margin of the page that says something to the effect of, "Dual, cross-country, and total time has been adjusted X hours for dual, cross-country, and total time logged in FTDs." Then date and initial the note. Now you can start on a new page with the correct numbers and your times should add up as rick mentioned earlier.

I made a similar mistake when I was going through my instrument (which an examiner caught) and I adjusted for it and made the note at the bottom. It's a lot easier and makes your logbook look a lot cleaner than if you were to go in there and green all of it out. No one mentioned it when I interviewed with several airlines earlier this year and I got hired.
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