RuttR

121 or 135, the captain, designated on the release, is the one that logs PIC. There is more than one subpart in 61.51: (e) (2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

The captain on the release, check airman or not, is the PIC and logs PIC. If the captain losses qualification and a check airman is required to provide a line check, than the check airman will find his name on the release, because he, the check airman, has to be qualified to be captain, so he’s the one designated at captain. The check airman will probably be sitting on the right seat at the time. The PIC doesn’t even have to be required to sit in the left seat!

121.545 doesn’t reference anything about logging time, only who is allowed to manipulate flight controls. Manipulating flight controls doesn’t having any bearing on logging time under 121, and probably 135. I don’t fly 135. However, part 61 is the guidance for logging of time.

BigWake

Qtip is 100% correct on this matter. There is only one person in command and thats the guy who signs the "flight release". A new Captain flying from the left seat (IOE) with a check airman in the right is not the PIC. He should still be listed on the release as the F/O.

HercDriver130

Okay.... try this on for size. I work in a part 91/135 operation. MOST of our flying is part 91 though some is 135. Our GOM requires the designated PIC to fly from the left seat whenever passengers are on board. However, recently as PIC's we have been encouraged to let type rated ( no ATP ) FO's fly empty legs from the left seat so they can log "PIC" time towards their ATP. What does the corporate brain trust think of that!!

NoyGonnaDoIt

Think of what and in what way?

• Logging time toward an FAA ATP follows FAA rules.
• FAA rules day that a pilot who is rated in the airplane may log PIC any time he is the sole manipulator of the controls.
• Which seat you are in has nothing to do with logging time under 61.51

That's the FAA logging time end of it.

Company policies or OpSpecs might say something about when the SIC is permitted to be the one flying but I'm not sure what that has to do with the logging issue.

HercDriver130

so... you are saying both pilots in this case can log PIC time at the same time since the PIC on the paper work is still responsible regardless of who is flying.

NoyGonnaDoIt

No. I'm saying that from an FAA standpoint, 61.51(e) sets up a series of boxes that allow a pilot to log PIC time. A pilot fits in a box, she's entitled to log it. Don't fit in a box, the pilot can't log it (even if the pilot is responsible for the flight). Two pilots both fit in boxes, they both log it. None fit, none log it (at least that's how the theory goes).

The typed-SIC who is doing the hands-on flying logs it because he fits into the 61.51(e)1)(i) box.

Whether the non-flying, responsible PIC can log PIC time depends on whether he fits into a 61.51 box. There are potentially three of those in the kind of situations we've been discussing:

1. 61.51(e)(1)(iii) if the aircraft is a 2-pilot required aircraft
2. 61.51(e)(1)(iii) if the operation is a 2-pilot required operation
3. 61.51(e)(2) if the operation is one that requires an ATP as PIC

But if, say, we're talking about a Part 135 cargo op in a single-pilot certified airplane, only the pilot flying gets to log PIC (or any flight time for that matter), no matter which of them is the acting PIC and responsible for the flight.

But remember, that's FAA logging. Companies may have different views about what kind of time they want to count for their experience requirements.