Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-27-2008, 08:31 PM   #11  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 23,636
Default

The original question is a good one. Instrument training (either with a CFII or SP) is loggable as PIC in FAR terms if you are rated at least as a PPL in that aircraft. With a CFII, it is also dual.

This is true under the hood in VMC, or in IMC with an instructor. This is a little bit counter-intuitive since you are not rated for the IMC flight condition, but that's how it is generally done.


Actually there are two phases of your career as far as PIC goes, and the real-world definition of PIC is different between the two.

At the entry-level, including regionals, they will generally accept any FAR-legal PIC towards their required totals.

When you apply to majors, they generally want to break out dual received, dual given, safety pilot, etc. These times will still be counted, but seperately. Probably safe to safe the majors will not care about exactly how you logged PIC while a PPL, as long as it was not fruadulent. Ultimately, for your PIC total they are interested in time in which YOU signed for the airplane and flew it...this is the gold standard.

Folks who come up with schemes to log PIC when they were not the CA usually find out that it doesn't work...interviewers can sniff that out. Kind of like the FAR provision to apply some SIC while "fulfilling the duties of PIC" to the PIC mins for an ATP...that time would still be SIC, not PIC. It can be used towards an ATP, but not for anything else.
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 09-28-2008, 10:26 AM   #12  
Blue Light Special
 
mcartier713's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Learjet 45 & G-IV
Posts: 618
Default

I was also talking to a DPE (ex-FAA) the other day who said something I had never heard before... I wanna see who all agrees with this.

"There is a difference between 'logging' PIC and 'acting' as PIC... you may LOG any time as PIC as long as you're rated in the category and class (and type if applicable) and you're the sole manipulator of the controls. HOWEVER, you may not ACT as PIC unless you fulfill the FAR requirements to do so."

Examples that came to my mind would be flying a complex airplane before you had your complex endorsement. You're rated in the airplane so you may log PIC, however, you need an instructor there to act as PIC.

Here's the more shady one... what about if you're flying right seat with someone 135? You don't have 135 minimums, but you're rated in the airplane in which you're flying. Because you're the sole manipulator of the controls, can you log PIC since the capt (not touching the controls) is acting as PIC?

Haha, just some food for thought.
mcartier713 is offline  
Old 09-28-2008, 11:28 AM   #13  
Gets Weekends Off
 
de727ups's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,348
Default

I believe what you quoted the DPE saying is spot on. Huge difference between acting and logging in a few specific areas.

In your 135 example, though, you wouldn't be allowed to be sole manipulator because it's a 135 flight. I've heard of guys logging the "dead legs" of 135, if there is no freight and you are dispatched under 91.
de727ups is offline  
Old 09-28-2008, 07:46 PM   #14  
Gets Weekends Off
 
250 or point 65's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 978
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcartier713 View Post

Examples that came to my mind would be flying a complex airplane before you had your complex endorsement. You're rated in the airplane so you may log PIC, however, you need an instructor there to act as PIC.
No, you do not have privileges for that aircraft. You are not able to fly that without an instructor's endorsement.

People also need to get away from this "sole manipulator of the controls" BS. The next parts are very important. "of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges"

it is important to read the whole reg
250 or point 65 is offline  
Old 09-28-2008, 07:57 PM   #15  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Pilotpip's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 2,925
Default

SR would be proud.

Doneski.
Pilotpip is offline  
Old 09-28-2008, 09:05 PM   #16  
Blue Light Special
 
mcartier713's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Learjet 45 & G-IV
Posts: 618
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 250 or point 65 View Post
No, you do not have privileges for that aircraft. You are not able to fly that without an instructor's endorsement.

People also need to get away from this "sole manipulator of the controls" BS. The next parts are very important. "of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges"

it is important to read the whole reg
we're not talking about solo... we're talking logging it as PIC WHILE you're receiving your training/endorsement....

and personally, I didn't log PIC time in complex until I got my endorsement.
mcartier713 is offline  
Old 09-29-2008, 08:17 AM   #17  
Gets Weekends Off
 
250 or point 65's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 978
Default

right, you cannot log PIC while with an instructor while working on a complex.
250 or point 65 is offline  
Old 09-29-2008, 09:22 AM   #18  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 23,636
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcartier713 View Post
we're not talking about solo... we're talking logging it as PIC WHILE you're receiving your training/endorsement....

and personally, I didn't log PIC time in complex until I got my endorsement.
No, you cannot log it until you get the endorsement.

But a complex endorsement can be accomplished in one flight...typically we were training a commercial applicant, so his first complex flight would not be PIC but he would get his endorsement after that flight. His subsequent commercial complex training would all be PIC. This was easy because we knew he would get additional supervised complex flying.

I'm not sure why there is all this interest in logging grey area piston-PIC. Maybe it's related to the low-time pilot phenomenon?

Unless you're certain it's PIC, best not to log it. What you REALLY need is turbine, not piston, PIC anyway.
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 09-29-2008, 02:03 PM   #19  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 211
Default

i have complex high hp endorsement. since im the one that asked the original question, is that a yes or a no on the pic instrument training?(technically)
normajean21 is offline  
Old 09-29-2008, 02:45 PM   #20  
Gets Weekends Off
 
N0315's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: CFII
Posts: 184
Default

hmm. Where I went to school, they told me to log PIC in a complex before the endorsement. I guess I should have read the regs before I followed their way of logging.I had to take three different in school phase checks before they would give it to me because my instructor said I was good to go but the director said the time was too low. Just flippin great.
N0315 is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
PIC Obligations and Authority vagabond Aviation Law 12 09-01-2009 07:57 PM
Logging PIC vs SIC myflatsix Aviation Law 15 12-14-2008 08:39 AM
PLEASE STICKY: This is why a safety pilot under simulated instrument logs PIC 250 or point 65 Flight Schools and Training 1 09-23-2008 04:31 PM
Excelaire out of KISP looking for EMB145 PIC 7700 Hiring News 7 09-16-2008 08:47 AM
Which time is better for the majors? rocketman3746 Major 21 08-25-2008 07:42 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:41 PM.