Ewfflyer

Icing is one of those great catch 22's in flying. It's easy to get sucked in, and it does take awhile to really "learn" to fly, handle, and know where icing is. If you have the opportunity, try and get a "ride" with some 135 freight guys, because that's where you're going to learn about it, especially right now, it's prime time for icing!!!!!!!!!

sellener

Just wanted to acknowledge I realize I am beating a dead horse, and being quite literal. Also appreciate everyones time and info.

Im asking myself right now if I would fly with a student VFR with weather we have right now in mid michigan. Icing airmet surface and up. Forecast snow showers in the area forecast and TAF. No visible precipitation out the window BKN clouds 5000?

My concern would be if I encountered snow, wet snow or freezing rain and landed, and someone tattled. I could hear the FAA saying... Stupid pilot you flew in an icing airmet with forecast precip, heres your violation.

Also if you were up in those conditions and simply encountered a cold light snow shower would you immediately terminate the flight?

If any freight guys in mid-michigan want to give a ride to a motivated student let me know. I have a steady hand for pouring coffee.

KC10 FATboy

You are exactly correct. You can still be VFR and enter icing; freezing fog, freezing drizzle, freezing rain and snow etc.

The regulation seems to be written so if you filed VFR, you could fly through an area with forecasted light to moderate icing. But as soon as that ice becomes known, if you willingly flew through the area, you would be in violation. As others have pointed out, the FAA has been very liberal when determining known and forecasted and whether the pilot was wreckless.

Does that make sense? Am I missing anything?

Sellener;

I believe you would be legal if you flew with a student, VFR, in an area of FORECASTED light to moderate icing (assuming your aircraft isn't certified). But the minute the area gets KNOWN icing, you need to exit that area.

Whatever the case, READ APPENDIX 2 of that advisory circular. Even the FAA admits, forecasting ice is difficult and many pilots suddenly find themselves unknowingly in a bad situation. As PIC, you have to make the decision if its "smart" to go fly. If you think you can maintain wings etc clear of ice, then go for it. But if theres chances of you having to penetrate clouds or freezing precip, I wouldn't go. Being legal does you no good if you're dead.

-Fatty

de727ups

"Im asking myself right now if I would fly with a student VFR with weather we have right now in mid michigan."

I'd have no problem with it.

I've flown in snow showers and the main problem is greatly reduced vis. Have you flown in rain showers? Snow is about twice as bad.

Go ahead and do your training flights. I'd just keep a close eye on the precip and give always make sure you have an out. Stick around areas that have a a nearby airport in every direction so if the weather pushes you one way you still have a place to go.

NoyGonnaDoIt

I agree.

The problem with freezing rain is that the droplets freeze on contact, icing the aircraft. Other types of frozen precipitation generallydon't do this. The problem cones up with the "generally" but that's where knowledge of the weather conditions in your locale make a difference.

I know that's a common belief, but I don't think it's right - not the need to get out part, but the difference between "known" and "forecast."

The best way I've heard it put is that it's "known (icing conditions)" not "(known icing) conditions."

IOW, the way the enforcement cases read, all you have to know is that conditions conducive to icing exist - and forecasts are certainly enough for that. If there was a forecast of the "right" temperature and clouds, for example, you "know" that "icing conditions" exist, and that's enough to hang you if you have an ice problem.

sellener

http://www.genebenson.com/docs/icing...n_april_07.pdf


The whole icing thing is nagging me and I spent hours researching it. Yeah.... Im still a nerd.

If you read the article above, the last paragraph that starts with "Ultimately......." sums up the FAA clarification letter to AOPA. Although it doesn't clarify anything.

I believe (according to the FAA) you can still fly into visible moisture at freezing and still be legal, so long as nothing goes wrong, and a prudent pilot doesnt reasonably assume that ice will stick to the wing...(airmets,sigmets,composite information).


I dont know how someone decides if ice will stick to a wing or not (composite information per the FAA) LOL

So my personal choice is to stay clear clouds, rain, and freezing rain with temps below freezing.


My only question/comment is again regards to snow. It is visible moisture. However, I could argue that based on weather theory that a prudent pilot could not reasonably assume (after checking the TAFS and FA that only snow showers were forecast or observed....no mixed rain/snow) that flight into a snow shower would cause icing.


So if theres good VFR with just scattered light snow showers, i am flying. HA Stupid FAA Jerks

NoyGonnaDoIt

Looking back through the posts, I'm surprised no one talked about the 2006 FAA Chief Counsel opinion that really stirred up a hornets' nest. So much so that the FAA took the unusual step of talking about in in the Federal Register.

As long as you're a nerd about this subject, check this out

http://frwebgate3.access.gpo.gov/cgi...ction=retrieve

de727ups

I don't know why, but I've never had snow stick to the wings in VMC. Maybe it was always too dry.

BoilerUP

The FAA rescinded the letter stating high humidity constituted "known icing" a couple months ago.