On the subject of ATP's PFJ...
03-02-2009, 06:45 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: RJ FO
Posts: 39
On the subject of ATP's PFJ...
I'm a flight student at a local part 141 school. Enrolled a year ago, so far have 65 hrs in a 172, spent over 12.000 and just getting to cross-country flying. Looks like it's going to be another 5-6K before I get to the check-ride. Cost of PPL= approx.17.000 
Since the FBO route doesn't seem to work out for me (I have already spent twice the amount that my school had promised I would spend on getting my Private), I am considering ATP. I know the opinions about this school vary, but so far I've heard more positive comments than negative, so I'm most likely gonna go for it.
Now, with the ATP's there are two options: the 50K "professional" and the 65K "professional"+"internship" with GIA(I'll just call it PFJ)
Ok, I know that most people frown on the option of PFJ, but I was just doing some math here, and here are my thoughts...
Apart from the moral issue of paying for flying instead of being paid, there's also a finantial side, which comes down to this:
The "professional"+PFJ program is 15.000 more expensive then plain "professional". It buys me 250 of multi time on top of whatever is included in the "professional".
250 hrs in a Piper Commanche at my local FBO would cost me 54.500+fuel costs. Suppose I found someone to share the cost with - then we'd each spend 23.000 (and each of us would log 130 hrs PIC, which is
).
SO, I looking at the cost of these two options:
Route#1 - "professional"+250hrs twin time at FBO
50.000+23.000=73.000$
Route#2 - "professional"+PFJ
65.000$
Another issue is that the loans for these two programs come from different banks.
The loan for the "professional" is thru Sallie Mae and the rate is ridiculous - 12%! (plus I need another co-signer, which is a problem )
The loan for the "prof"+PFJ is easier to get and the rate is 4%.
So, looking at the financial side, it seems that the PFJ option is actually... worth it in the long run??
Please let me know what you think about this.
Oh, and about the CFI rount of time-building- that's definitely, definitely a possibility which I consider and which I'm going to take and that's something which I will do no matter how much I dislike teaching..No quesiton about that.
But what I am concerned about is getting the ME time. In our FBO VERY FEW instructors get to fly the twin, even though they are all MEIs. We just don't have a lot of ME students, so most intsructors have hundreds of SE time, but very little multi. That was the issue for a lot of them when the hiring boom came and went, and they coundn't even get an interview because of insufficient ME time.
So I would certainly like to use the opportunity of getting some ME time, but I have to think ten times now that there's so much controversy about the ATP's "internship".
Again, I'm not expecting to go through with the traning and PFJ and get on with an airline right away, but maybe this "internship" can be an all-right option of getting some ME time and then getting back to instructing in C172, hoping the next hiring boom is on it's way?
Since the FBO route doesn't seem to work out for me (I have already spent twice the amount that my school had promised I would spend on getting my Private), I am considering ATP. I know the opinions about this school vary, but so far I've heard more positive comments than negative, so I'm most likely gonna go for it.
Now, with the ATP's there are two options: the 50K "professional" and the 65K "professional"+"internship" with GIA(I'll just call it PFJ)
Ok, I know that most people frown on the option of PFJ, but I was just doing some math here, and here are my thoughts...
Apart from the moral issue of paying for flying instead of being paid, there's also a finantial side, which comes down to this:
The "professional"+PFJ program is 15.000 more expensive then plain "professional". It buys me 250 of multi time on top of whatever is included in the "professional".
250 hrs in a Piper Commanche at my local FBO would cost me 54.500+fuel costs. Suppose I found someone to share the cost with - then we'd each spend 23.000 (and each of us would log 130 hrs PIC, which is
). SO, I looking at the cost of these two options:
Route#1 - "professional"+250hrs twin time at FBO
50.000+23.000=73.000$
Route#2 - "professional"+PFJ
65.000$
Another issue is that the loans for these two programs come from different banks.
The loan for the "professional" is thru Sallie Mae and the rate is ridiculous - 12%! (plus I need another co-signer, which is a problem )
The loan for the "prof"+PFJ is easier to get and the rate is 4%.
So, looking at the financial side, it seems that the PFJ option is actually... worth it in the long run??
Please let me know what you think about this.
Oh, and about the CFI rount of time-building- that's definitely, definitely a possibility which I consider and which I'm going to take and that's something which I will do no matter how much I dislike teaching..No quesiton about that.
But what I am concerned about is getting the ME time. In our FBO VERY FEW instructors get to fly the twin, even though they are all MEIs. We just don't have a lot of ME students, so most intsructors have hundreds of SE time, but very little multi. That was the issue for a lot of them when the hiring boom came and went, and they coundn't even get an interview because of insufficient ME time.
So I would certainly like to use the opportunity of getting some ME time, but I have to think ten times now that there's so much controversy about the ATP's "internship".
Again, I'm not expecting to go through with the traning and PFJ and get on with an airline right away, but maybe this "internship" can be an all-right option of getting some ME time and then getting back to instructing in C172, hoping the next hiring boom is on it's way?
03-02-2009, 07:03 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
Great question.
My answer is never PFJ. Never, no matter what...
You can look at the cost to benefit ratio and it could be a good deal for you.
You can look at the short time to RJ F/O, and it could be a good deal for you.
You can look at "not having to instruct", and you might think that's a good deal for you.
You can buy off on it as the only way to get the loan....
In the end, PFJ is always a bad deal for the profession. It's one of my few absolute things that there is no way around. You just can't justify any sort of Pay for a Job scheme. Even if it's with a supposedly reputable schoool like ATP.
Gulfstream PFJ has always been bad for the profession. That ATP is doing a deal with them makes me think those considering that route should seriously take a second look.
My answer is never PFJ. Never, no matter what...
You can look at the cost to benefit ratio and it could be a good deal for you.
You can look at the short time to RJ F/O, and it could be a good deal for you.
You can look at "not having to instruct", and you might think that's a good deal for you.
You can buy off on it as the only way to get the loan....
In the end, PFJ is always a bad deal for the profession. It's one of my few absolute things that there is no way around. You just can't justify any sort of Pay for a Job scheme. Even if it's with a supposedly reputable schoool like ATP.
Gulfstream PFJ has always been bad for the profession. That ATP is doing a deal with them makes me think those considering that route should seriously take a second look.
03-02-2009, 07:36 PM
#3
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 39
Shop around
Sorry you spent so much on your Private. You didn't say which city you're in, either way shop around for prices.
A was told a person just recently here in Atlanta paid $24,000 for a Private certificate at one of the local schools. That person had over 100 hours when done and didn't know she had been taken until after finishing training.
At our 141 school the latest Private pilot received his certificate at 45 hours and paid $7000.
It seems that some people don't shop around for the Private license because they didn't realize they should. Until they join this community they are unaware of the varying prices from different schools.
So don't jump to ATP so quick, shop around.
A was told a person just recently here in Atlanta paid $24,000 for a Private certificate at one of the local schools. That person had over 100 hours when done and didn't know she had been taken until after finishing training.
At our 141 school the latest Private pilot received his certificate at 45 hours and paid $7000.
It seems that some people don't shop around for the Private license because they didn't realize they should. Until they join this community they are unaware of the varying prices from different schools.
So don't jump to ATP so quick, shop around.
03-02-2009, 08:06 PM
#4
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 74
I have a student that came from IATA that has 130 hour and no private. He is a international student and luckily he doesn't have to pay a dime for his training. Now he will have to complete at minimum 17 lessons in the 141 environment to get his private. He hasn't flown in a year because IATA lost the contract or went bankrupt or something (not sure the circumstance) and he was forced to go back home. After a year is knowledge and stick and rudder skills are great, but i guess they should be after 130 hours. I can't imagine if he was paying for his rating, what a waste of money.
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