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King Air B-200 Question

Old 05-27-2009, 06:55 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by ZnCrO4 View Post
First of all coming from a kid that has a bit of experience riding right seat in the King Air, it is great experience. The only time I ever log time is when I am flying, managing the auto pilot, or receiving instruction. The type of flying that I do should prolly require two pilots on board although it doesn’t, so most of the time I run the radios and soak up tips and tricks from the guys I fly with and log nothing. No, before someone says it I do get paid for what I do, fairly well I might add. I have learned more from the right seat observing, as an instructor and as dead weight, than I have actually flying.

The rule that I live by is this: "you can log anything that you want, BUT just be able to explain it to the FAA or future employer.”

just my two cents.


and flyboy do I know the student in question?
That seems to be the general consensus from everyone that I have talked to today and people on here of course.

And no you wouldnt. I dont instruct at Western....
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Old 05-27-2009, 09:49 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by ryan1234 View Post
Obviously you can't log PIC time without the hp/ha endorsement
Incorrect... your training towards the HP/HA endorsements counts as PIC because you have a certificate in category and class.
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:08 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by Zach View Post
So say i got a right seat, part 91 job that required 2 pilots (by the company) in a 200, could I legally log it as PIC? I have a CMEL
You can only have one PIC per flight part 91 flight in a single pilot aircraft, so if it's not dual, only one of you can log it. Who's at the controls?

I logged SIC while flying part 135- only because the FAA checked me to do so.

If the PIC is a MEI, then log dual.

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Old 05-27-2009, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by atpwannabe View Post
I'm not as knowledgable as some of the rest of the guys who participate on this Forum about logging time as an SIC on the KA200; however, if I remember correctly, I believe that he can under certain situations and conditions; mainly if the Ops Manual for the outfit calls for one and he meets insurance requirements.

You may want to PM wrxpilot directly. He flies as an FO on a KA350 I believe.
atp
Close! I used to fly as an F/O for a 135 charter operation flying a KA90 and 200. Not doing that anymore.

Here's the deal -

1)If it's 135 charter (carrying passengers), legally the company is required to have an SIC on the airplane if it is flying under IFR (135.101). This is regardless of whether the airplane type requires two pilots, so even an Aztec would require two pilots under 135 pax charter flown IFR.

Almost all charter companies utilize 135.105 in their FAA approved op specs, which allows an autopilot to be used instead of an SIC. Unfortunately, a lot of people that are unfamiliar with 135 FARs take that to mean an SIC is unable to log the time IF the company utilizes this exception. This is definitely NOT true, as indicated by the FAA letter of interpretation I have attached below.

2)So now that we know a SIC can legally be used for 135 IFR charter, we have to make sure the SIC is legal. Because of 135.115 (manipulation of flight controls), you can't just have a local CFI jump in the right seat and start flying the plane during 135 flights. It is illegal. Here are the requirements to be an SIC:

a)FAR 135.4 - Must be a commercial pilot (applicable category/class) with an instrument rating.

b)FAR 135.293 - The second in command must pass an oral or written test AND a practical (flying) test. This can be done by the "Administrator" (FAA) or a designated check airman. Most 135 shops have the chief pilot signed off by the FAA to be a designated check airman.

Frequently new SICs are brought on board and work the radios, etc. when pax are on board, but get to fly and are trained during empty legs. Then you do the checkride.

So the bottom line is that for 135 charter, no problem on logging the SIC time as long as it's done the right way as listed above. For part 91 operations, unfortunately it is not loggable time (even though it might be a great experience!).

Also, insurance requirments, company op specs, etc. have no bearing on whether or not SIC time can be logged.

----------------------------------------------------------
Here's the letter of interpretation from the FAA:

Here's a letter from the FAA regarding these issues for Part 135 operators:

March 26, 1992


Mr. Michael G. Tarsa


Dear Mr. Tarsa:

Thank you for your letter of April 3, 1991, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). We apologize that staff shortages, regulatory matters, and interpretation requests received prior to yours prevented us from answering your questions sooner.

Your letter presents the following scenario: a Part 135 certificate holder conducts operations in multiengine airplanes under instrument flight rules (IFR). The operator has approval to conduct operations without an SIC using an approved autopilot under the provisions of FAR 135.105. The operator has assigned a fully qualified pilot, who has had a Part 135 competency check, to act as SIC in an aircraft that does not require two pilots under its type certification. Although FAR 135.101 requires an SIC for Part 135 operations in IFR conditions, the autopilot approval is an exception to that requirement.

You correctly state that while the SIC is flying the airplane, he can log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency checks required for Part 135 operations, at least as SIC.

You then ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 135.109, can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane. The answer is yes.

FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:

(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.


FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only regulates the recording of:

(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:

(2) Pilot in command flight time. (i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot in command time only that flight time during which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in command time all of the flight time during which he acts as pilot in command.

(iii) (omitted).

(3) Second in command flight time. A pilot may log as second in command time all flight time during which he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot in command flight time that are pertinent to your question. The first is as the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 135.109, that person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft.

The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your letter. Thus, a multiengine airplane flown under Part 135 by two pilots can have both pilots logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated second in command is manipulating the controls.

We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot has not qualified to serve as a PIC under Part 135.

An example of this difference is FAR 135.225(d), which raises IFR landing minimums for pilots in command of turbine powered airplanes flown under Part 135 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check rides necessary for certification as a Part 135 PIC.

Approval for single pilot operations with use of an operative approved autopilot system under FAR 135.105 gives an operator an additional option in the conduct of operations. It does not mandate that all future flights be conducted in that manner. The operator can elect to fly trips with two pilots, as is otherwise required for flight in IFR conditions under FAR 135.101, using the second in command instead of the autopilot.

Your second question asks if, under the circumstances given above, the SIC can log time as SIC when the designated pilot in command is flying the aircraft. The answer is yes, as long as the certificate holder is using the SIC as a crewmember instead of exercising the autopilot authorization. In other words, the certificate holder elects not to conduct an IFR flight using the single pilot with a functioning autopilot option, but rather conducts an IFR flight using two qualified pilots. The two pilots are then "required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted", FAR 61.51(c)(3), and the assumption is that the second pilot (SIC) will function as a required crewmember, and SIC time may validly be logged. However, if for some reason another qualified pilot "rides along" and does not function as a crewmember, then second in command time may not be validly logged.

This interpretation has been prepared by Arthur E. Jacobson, Staff Attorney, Operations Law Branch, Regulations and Enforcement Division; Richard C. Beitel, Manager. It has been coordinated with the Manager, Air Transportation Division, and the Manager, General Aviation and Commercial Division, Flight Standards Service.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,


Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
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Old 05-27-2009, 05:34 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by Ottopilot View Post
You can only have one PIC per flight part 91 flight in a single pilot aircraft, so if it's not dual, only one of you can log it. Who's at the controls?

I logged SIC while flying part 135- only because the FAA checked me to do so.

If the PIC is a MEI, then log dual.

Prepare to answer BE200 questions on your interviews. I was asked Cheyenne 400 questions.
I ask because I may be starting a B200 job as an FO soon, and the only other 2 pilot flying I have done is at the airlines. The chief pilot at the company i would be flying for said I could log it as PIC when I am the PF.

My thinking is that, yes I am the sole manipulator of the controls, but I am not the one responsible for/signing off on the aircraft, so it is not PIC (to me) in the sense that a future company would see.
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:35 AM
  #16  
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A Be20 can be operated Single-Pilot under 135 IFR regs as long as you have an approved and operable auto-pilot. Now, since the above mentioned Ops' Specs say you need the SIC and it's authorized, then yes, they are now a required crewmember. As mentioned before, just log it as Total-Time, not SIC. SIC in Be20 means about Jack-Squat, but the Total-Time is what you need!
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Old 05-28-2009, 07:11 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by Zach View Post
My thinking is that, yes I am the sole manipulator of the controls, but I am not the one responsible for/signing off on the aircraft, so it is not PIC (to me) in the sense that a future company would see.
Remember, LOGGING PIC has little to nothing to do with "sole manipulator of the controls". If there's two qualified pilots sitting there logging some sort of time, then neither of you are sole manipulator.

What the chief pilot is probably talking about is the 89 yr old in the left seat not caring how anyone logs anything because his solo sign off was done with a quill pen. Therefore, since grandpa doesnt care, you will be able to log PIC on the empty legs.
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Old 05-28-2009, 07:13 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by floridaCFII View Post
Incorrect... your training towards the HP/HA endorsements counts as PIC because you have a certificate in category and class.
Nice pick. To add, just like your instrument training is logged as PIC as long as you're at least a pvt (and you're not in a cloud).
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 250 or point 65 View Post
Nice pick. To add, just like your instrument training is logged as PIC as long as you're at least a pvt (and you're not in a cloud).
Even if you are in a cloud you're good to go. Category and class under the supervision of a rated CFII.
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Old 05-28-2009, 01:23 PM
  #20  
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Questions like these make my head hurt and make me happy that the Army requires two pilots in our King Airs.

On the "is this a good idea" question, I would say this is a great learning opportunity and a great opportunity for a full time PIC job, but doesn't have to be the only way the student gains his flight experience. Any time spent in the front seat of a King Air, whether you are logging time or not, will be time well spent learning about complicated multi-engine IFR operations. That's coming from an 1800 hour King Air guy.

What is there to say this guy can't sit right seat from time to time and also get a job instructing elsewhere?
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